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  • Leave No Man Behind..?

    I've never really contemplated this proposition at all, whether playing Regular Battlefield 2, or Point of Existence 2, even Tacmod. However recently this query has been on my mind quite frequently while playing Project Reality. Simply put, what are a squad leaders priorities and where do missing squad members fit into the queue, if at all.

    In most incarnations of Battlefield the map sizes are too small and the action too quick for lost squad members to be an issue. Either everyone in the squad is obliterated at the same time or if a few people do survive they are rapidly pinpointed and eliminated. However, with Project Reality's immense battlefields, ample cover and long range engagements it is perfectly reasonable to have one or two squad members not currently being engaged but still trapped behind enemy lines. What should we do about them.

    Traditional first person shooter philosophy suggests we either tell them to do a suicide attack, or continue onto the objective even if they have little chance of success. And in either instance they just magically spawn back at the squad leader or main base or what have you. What has one got to lose.

    And of course there is nothing in actuality to lose but reality, or the illusion of reality itself. Aptly named, Project Reality tries to bring a number of realistic elements into the inherently arcade-like Battlefield series, but it goes without saying that there is only so much bits of code and accurate ballistics templates can do to bolster how close the game actually comes to reality. Moreover, how much realism is derived from the actual game as opposed to the mentality of the players of the game.

    Certainly you can have players engaging in realistic tactics and strategy in a fantasy game, like Battlefield 2142, but to the same degree you can have entire fallacies played out in the strictest of simulators, like Armed Assault. But obviously the reason that these are rare occurrences is because games like Armed Assault don't attract those that want to bunny hop and suicide, just as Battlefield 2142 is unappealing to realists. Nextly, how does Project Reality fit into this scheme.

    This is where it gets complex, and is an area of some disagreement. Project Reality is not pure arcade nor is it fantasy, but it's also not a simulator. Someone could easily claim, the ability to respawn is present for a reason, and although there are some realistic elements they are only to enhance the arcade-like game play elements, therefore we should not go out of our way to save one solider who could just as easily respawn. Conversely, one could suggest we as players have the obligation to act as realistically as the modification's engine allows and as a result, just as in reality, we should devote significant resources to rescuing downed troops.

    Ultimately I suppose the issue is not, should we, or should we not leave a man or two behind, but more so I think the issue is to what extent should we engage in realistic action while playing Project Reality. But, as an exemplar of this more fundamental query it would be easier and more concrete if I simply asked: Shouldn't we leave no man behind?

  • #2
    Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

    Interesting and it all depends. I never have told any of my squad mates to just suicide. In PR where it may take a lot of effort to get back together, then I would suggest one of two things for that remaining troop.

    1) If the end objective is the same point, then I would prefer them to become a recon specialist. Someone who observes and report enemy strength, positions, etc... They are also allowed to be opportunistic and can be used as a decoy hitting the edges of the defense and then drawing them away in the wrong direction.

    2) If the end objective shifts to another objective, then they should break off combat and move to a point at which they can join the rest of the squad. Again, spotting and take advantage of the opportunities that are presented without giving away your position.

    I know this is for PR. If you throw POE in the mix, then I would also include infiltration into the enemy flag in order to sneak off with any unoccupied vehicles. Any tank or apc you can remove from the enemy has a +2 effect for your side (+1 tank that they no longer have and + 1 tank that you now have). At that point, they should back off the flag and engage at a distance to keep pressure on the flag long enough for the squad's return to eliminate them.

    Lucky Shot

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    • #3
      Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

      i'll go out of the way to pick some guy up if he's really stuck in the back, or has way too much distance to cover, but most times when someone isn't near enough for a revive or such, it's because they wondered off to do their own thing. which is fine by me, honestly, as sometimes a sniper or spec ops is better off slamming spawns or locking down infanty on their own.

      if i'm in the situation where i can help the guy without catching a frag, a little bit of smoke and a quick revive is no biggy at all. if the guy charged a tank front on with some c4 and a deathwish, i think he's better off to learn the lesson the tank just tought him.

      a fully operational squad that moves together is the best option always, and taking that little bit of time to keep everyone together often pays off a lot more dividends down the line than moving on, and writing it off as not worth the risk. the ultimate deciding factor for myself is what the guy wants to do. seriously needs and wants a ride? we're on a roadtrip then. wants to play solo with the advantage of squad granted kits? he knows where to find us when he wants to hook up down the road.
      -dy.21

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      • #4
        Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

        Brilliant post Sam,

        I've often been stuck in that situation (and not because I was lone-wolfing!) because I often play a medic. As such I hang back, and often, an entire squad can be taken out while I'm still in cover. Unless I want to try and Rambo, take out a whole squad and then revive and heal all of my team mates...well, let's put it this way - in that situation I generally hide like a girl, clutching my med-bag like a handbag, and more often than not, shed a lonely tear.

        Assuming the enemy moves on, then I'm stuck alone behind enemy lines. As Sam said, the size of the maps mean a lone soldier could stay in one spot and not be noticed for an entire game, easily. I have been stuck in this situation and called for a helo evac - I've yet to see a copper pilot who's willing/able to come to the rescue of that little blue dot in the corner of the map.

        I'd love to see a squad spend the resources to do whatever they can to rescue a friendly from behind enemy lines - then the game becomes so much more in depth, rather than being a CTF run-around, which PR is not.

        On the comm, getting the soldier to find a quiet spot, maybe laying down some smoke in a tight spot for a rescue helo which can swoop in and lay down some suppresing fire in a hot-zone, maybe drop off a squad to form a defensive circle while the soldier gets in - would make for great gameplay, and tense situations. This is what makes the game, IMHO, the ability for these situations to arise, and to have the resources necessary to be able to put a full-scale rescue mission into operation, should you choose to. It's that kind of freeform which makes it so appealing. It's almost a pity that this sort of stuff is overtaken by flag capping. :row__681:

        But then, I'm more about playing than winning, so I'm sure not everyone will share that view. I'm not sure what they have planned for PR.6, but it would be interesting to have a couple of maps where the objective was not flag capture - I'm not sure how it could be implemented (I haven't thought that far ahead!) but something which promotes more of this kind of gameplay, rather than CTF. Maybe even a rescue-mission specific map!

        However, as it stands - it'll be interesting to see what people think. Can you afford to send a squad/helo across the map for a rescue mission? Can you afford to have that man out for the time it takes to get him? I guess it comes down to whether you want to play the game, or win the game.


        7ShadesOSin
        7Shades

        How sweet, thought lifeless, yet with life to lie,
        And, without dying, O how sweet to die!
        - from Thomas Warton's "Ode to Sleep"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

          As the game stands now, there would be no reason, other than role playing, to attempt a rescue.
          I admit it, I like to win. Winning is fun but more importantly competing to win is fun. Focusing on winning means focusing on cooperative play, following and/or leading, and acheiveing set objectives.

          That being my angle, the only way to make rescuing a lone soldier worth it, is to make the tickets mean something. Currently, people may watch tickets, and may change their play if they see that tickets are running out. But the individual ticket does not have much weight in the game until the very end, and then only if the count is close.

          However, giving more weight to ticket counts, would probably result in a less fun game over all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

            Good thread.



            Originally posted by Lucky Shot View Post
            Interesting and it all depends. I never have told any of my squad mates to just suicide. In PR where it may take a lot of effort to get back together, then I would suggest one of two things for that remaining troop.

            1) If the end objective is the same point, then I would prefer them to become a recon specialist. Someone who observes and report enemy strength, positions, etc... They are also allowed to be opportunistic and can be used as a decoy hitting the edges of the defense and then drawing them away in the wrong direction.

            2) If the end objective shifts to another objective, then they should break off combat and move to a point at which they can join the rest of the squad. Again, spotting and take advantage of the opportunities that are presented without giving away your position.

            I know this is for PR. If you throw POE in the mix, then I would also include infiltration into the enemy flag in order to sneak off with any unoccupied vehicles. Any tank or apc you can remove from the enemy has a +2 effect for your side (+1 tank that they no longer have and + 1 tank that you now have). At that point, they should back off the flag and engage at a distance to keep pressure on the flag long enough for the squad's return to eliminate them.

            Lucky Shot
            I believe Lucky Shot has a good way to approach this.

            Go with the flow.
            If a player is behind enemy lines, he/she can stay low and do recon, or if they have the correct kit, and sabotage enemy assests and roads.

            If another squad is around, the person can try to hook up with them.
            NOTE: it is best for a SL to tell another SL that a friendly is going to hook up with so frindly fire is reduced. Either via text chat or one day the teamspeak CO/SL channel.

            They can stay low and wait for a fast ground mover to come by and pick them up.
            This could be either via jeep or chopper.

            I believe we have all found the chopper pilots to be very helpful to wayard grunts.

            ___

            Sadly, due to the fact that there are so many tickets and so many players playing the game really fast, most would just do an assault sucide and lose the team a ticket.

            __

            Try as I have to slow the game down

            1. After five respawns, 50 min respawn timer
            2. Reduced ticket amounts.

            It does not matter. The players make the game. 2 scond respawn timer or hundreds of tickets, I'll still play conservatively most of the time, and daring some of the time.
            (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
            (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
            (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander

            Squad Member pledge to their SL:
            Squad Leader pledge to their team:
            Commander pledge to their SL:

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

              I have recently been in this position, granted in PoE2.

              I was sneaking towards an enemy flag providing cover for an AT squad member. We hid in some grassy knolls, marking and trying to take out tanks as they rolled out. My mate got gunned down but the enemy never saw me. Eventually an AA tank came down, so I decided to harass it. When the AA stopped, the driver got out (for some recon perhaps?) I snuck up and tried to steal it. Didn't work, so now I was within arm's reach. He tried to run me down but I played matador and kept hopping out of the way. I lobbed my remaining grenades and the driver got out to do repairs. I tried to gun him down but he was too quick and got back in. Eventually a tank came down and tried to take me out, but I kept hiding behind the AA, forcing the tank to either kill his own armor or keep circling around for a shot. In this way I managed to keep two enemy assets tied up for several minutes by myself until I was dispatched.

              That was a rather extreme example; normally in such situations I try to keep cover and mark enemies until I can either get out, get killed, or get some company.
              |TG-6th|Belhade
              "I am actually looking forward to watching Jon and Kate plus 8." - Dirtboy




              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                One thing that helps a lot is if you remember who your medic is. When he goes down, do everything you can to get to him, grab his gear and revive him. This makes your medic happy. And a happy medic is one that won't leave you're critically wounded ass behind ;)


                You may end up playing medic for a bit, but it's usually not long before you come across a KIA... and you can use the kit that's left behind to swap back w/ your medic:

                - You pickup random kit, dropping Medic's old kit.
                - Medic picks it up, dropping your old kit.
                - You drop random kit to pickup your previous kit.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                  I seem to have this happen through my own fault. As a squad leader I'm always leading from the front. 9 times out of 10 I'm the first to take the bullet and a lot of times the squad will get pushed back and can't revive me.


                  Usually this will alow me to spawn in and who ever else spawned in to hit them in a seperate flank. If any one manages to stay alive in the originall posistion I'll assign a ftl for thoes guys and till them to hold there postition while I flank.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                    I don't see any reason to do this aside from for roleplaying purposes (which I personally am not a fan of).

                    Spending the time and resources to rescue what is effectively one "ticket" is silly. If someone gets cut off, it's their responsibility to make the best of the situation. They can start wrecking shop behind enemy lines, they can move towards friendly forces, or whatever.

                    5 guys taking 5 minutes or so to rescue one person (one ticket) is a very significant investment of effort that is not going towards the overall team objective. Taking a SINGLE KIA during the rescue means that you've spent 5 minutes for no gain. Taking two KIAs means you've spent 5 minutes to lose a ticket instead of gain one. When you look at the time and numbers involved, the odds of it being worth it - again, aside from a "roleplaying" perspective - are very, very slim. You're also taking equipment and kits that could be used towards accomplishing actual significant objectives and spending them on something that is utterly trivial in the scope of the mission.

                    My personal view is to not go beyond what the game models and rewards. PR is not the sort of game where a "behind enemy lines" situation develops in a fashion that necessitates a rescue response. Armed Assault, on the other hand - mission and situation dictating, of course - is a different story.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                      Yes but by design we are roleplaying a bit more than most. We have chosen to be a part of the TG community and have chosen to play PR - the best addition to bf2 yet. The fact is that most of us gain some unquantifiable satisfaction from trying to operate as real military units train ie. squad movement and tactics. If all we did was try only to ticket count then this game would definately lose flavor. I personally would gain satisfaction from bringing someone back - for me its like adding something of my will to a game.

                      Having said all that I do agree there are limits. Of course a whole squad spending 10 minutes for someone deviates from most peoples' idea of fun within a video game. But I do think there is a very decent reason to make an attempt to rescue someone under reasonable conditions.

                      I am biased though as I am in a helo unit and more maneouvrable. (PS if you do see a 160th squad up we will perform CSAR within reasonable limits even if opinions here differ).
                      Primary: IntelAgent (Planetside 2)
                      Light Assault, Reconnaissance, Intel Collection

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                        Originally posted by Fallosophy View Post
                        Yes but by design we are roleplaying a bit more than most. We have chosen to be a part of the TG community and have chosen to play PR - the best addition to bf2 yet. The fact is that most of us gain some unquantifiable satisfaction from trying to operate as real military units train ie. squad movement and tactics. If all we did was try only to ticket count then this game would definately lose flavor. I personally would gain satisfaction from bringing someone back - for me its like adding something of my will to a game.
                        I think you're missing a bit of what I'm saying. Roleplaying is doing things that are extraneous to the game and do not contribute towards effectiveness in it - they have no tangible effect in-game, or are cumbersome attempted adaptations of real-world behavior that do not necessarily translate to a given game. In the scope of PR, I personally believe that CSAR is extraneous and unneeded, and that it does not have a realistic application in the overall experience. The game, no matter how realistic it tries to be, is not geared for that kind of scenario - life is cheap, and the effort expended to get one person back is not proportional to what it brings to your team or even squad. The only benefit from it is that you are "roleplaying" when you do it.

                        Now, to be clear, I believe that certain games and/or mods have the potential to make this into a worthwhile possibility. I just do not believe that PR is one of those games. Not to say that you are wrong - you are of course entitled to your opinion - but based upon my experience in this kind of stuff (to include extensive gaming in an OFP mod that far eclipses PR from a realism standpoint), my view of this is different.

                        Also, "squad tactics and movement" have nothing to do with roleplaying. I'd just like to make that clear, because I am 100% for doing intelligent team tactics appropriate to the game, and that certainly does not fall under the "roleplaying" label due to it being directly rewarded by the game (by not dying, accomplishing your objectives better, etc) as well as being one of the most basic staples of a realistic wargaming experience.

                        Have you ever played Flashpoint or Armed Assault? If you honestly are interested in that kind of realism, you may want to check into them sometime.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                          Originally posted by Dslyecxi View Post
                          Have you ever played Flashpoint or Armed Assault? If you honestly are interested in that kind of realism, you may want to check into them sometime.
                          The 160th is at least partially going to expand to cover ArmA, but I fear you're missing the point. The requirement on all TG servers, is to treat the situation at hand as a real life situation. It's not a game, it's a simulation. I don't think people should have to play a certain game in order to take it as seriously as the role-players. Whether it's dystopia or BF2, natural selection or counterstrike, we WANT people to enjoy getting into their gaming that much. It really doesn't matter what the game is, what's important is the mindset you apply to it.
                          BFCL TF2 league admin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                            Originally posted by Root View Post
                            you're missing the point. The requirement on all TG servers, is to treat the situation at hand as a real life situation. It's not a game, it's a simulation. I don't think people should have to play a certain game in order to take it as seriously as the role-players. Whether it's dystopia or BF2, natural selection or counterstrike, we WANT people to enjoy getting into their gaming that much. It really doesn't matter what the game is, what's important is the mindset you apply to it.
                            You're equating "playing it seriously/tactically/etc" to "roleplaying". The two are distinctly different, and that is my point.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Leave No Man Behind..?

                              i've actually been put in a hard place. with the limited kit for medics i've had to watch a guy die who wasn't of my squad because i had to focus on my squad and revive/heal them. another thing i've noticed and it annoys the hell out of me is when i'm a medic and buddy runs over and takes my kit then simply walks off..

                              another scenario. i've used my bandages on my rifleman kit and take more hits. i'm bleeding out and another kit would fix me. except for a few rare exceptions i'm left to die because buddy doesn't want to drop his bandages for me.. i can't tell you how many times i've done this for people and i'll continue to do it even though i don't get the same in return. its just the right thing to do.

                              game or not its how you play.

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