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  • Negative Scoring Kick

    Heres a topic of much hardship for many people: the negative score kick.

    The problem: your score goes too far into the negative and you get kicked. Now, under normal gameplay circumstances, this isnt a problem. the number of TKs you'd have to get to rack up the required negative score is out of the realm of possibility for 99.9% of TGers. However, this is something that needs to be addressed with 0.6.

    The problem is twofold these days: vehicle crashes and civilians. Theres currently a bug running around that kicks you if you crash a vehicle with other people in it, sometimes even if you're alone, because your score goes hugely into the negative. The other half is that when you kill too many civilians, you get kicked for negative score.

    The first part could be solved by fixing the game code. Not really something we can do, but we do have devs here that can look into it.

    The second, dealing with the civilians, needs to be fixed. Heres a prime example of where things go badly: All Fallujah Area. Everyone who has played the map is familiar with the massive chokepoint at the gate. Well, what happens is that you have to place slams or c4 on the gate to blow it open and rush through. However, in order to rack up tickets for their team as well as repairing the gate before the USMC forces can pour through, civvies flock to the gate in droves. So if you're the guy doing the right thing for the USMC team by placing slams on the gate, you're guaranteed a kick for killing civilians. Last night during that map while the server was in password night mode, i watched at least 10 people get kicked for this, some repeatedly. It made for very bad gameplay.

    Now, I fully understand the need for a score penalty as far as killing civilians goes, but there has to be a way to limit this so that people dont get kicked for killing them accidentally. As i said, Al Fallujah is a prime example. Theres no way past that chokepoint for a full team without blowing the gate, and anyone who attempts to do so is going to get the boot for negative score. We cant function like that.

    So I'd like to open up a discussion on things we can do to alleviate the problem so that we can get back to a normal gameplay situation where these things are involved. Input from the devs and admins would be especially appreciated.

    However, please keep unneeded commentary to a minimum, we dont need lots of "yeah, that does suck" posts that dont offer any kind of solution/help with the actual problem.

  • #2
    Re: Negative Scoring Kick

    The required negative score should simply be lowered (increased?) so that being shot down once or crashing with a score of 0 does not get you kicked. The whole point of it is to automatically stop people from tking large numbers of vehicles (which I've never seen occur.)

    Al Fallujah just shouldn't be in the rotation..

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Negative Scoring Kick

      Frankly, I don't think it is that big of a deal. If someone blows up 4 civilians, be it from C4, arty or whatever, they just about lost the game for the Brit or US team. On the map with the gate, there is a way around the gate firstly, and secondly you don't even need to be attacking that flag unless you want to cap the other side off the map completely. All it is, is a giant choke point.

      As for crashing vehicles and getting kicked, I am ok with that. If I am a pilot and I just killed an entire squad of friendlies by smacking into the mountain, I am glady going to take that kick time and go make a LAN game where I can practice so it won't happen again. The small bonus of you delivering someone somewhere is negated by the fact that you just lost your team 7 tickets and a lot of time. They could have walked or had a safe boat ride there in the time you wasted.

      I say leave it. It is a good learning experience to be kicked.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Negative Scoring Kick

        Heres my problem with that line of thinking though Gahlas:
        First, killing 4 civvies, especially on that map, is nowhere near giving up the game. I counted at least 15 civvies getting blown up at the gate alone and both teams still had over 350 tickets.

        Second, yes, there is ONE way around the gate, a way which you cant take vehicles, and can be easily taken out from the ground by one insurgent with a molotov.

        Third, saying "ok, we have this side of the map, so were just going to sit here at a stalemate so we dont have to try to get through a chokepoint" isnt how we do things around here. With the exception of a few people who would venture out to try and rack up some kills, the whole insurgent team is just going to sit behind the gate. The game could drag on for HOURS at that rate since neither team has bleed and the flags, once capped by USMC, cannot be turned back to insurgent control.

        Bottom line, it needs to be fixed.

        As far as the vehicle kicks, you must not be familiar with the bug. There are times when it doesnt involve smacking into a mountain. I've been solo in a tank, been waxed by another tank and got kicked for negative score. I've seen people in blackhawks get kicked for negative score after being shot down by AA. It's a BUG. Not necessarily operator error. So before you go accusing people of stupidity, be sure to assess the situation.

        Furthermore, I seriously dont see how being kicked is a good learning experience. That point alone makes no sense. What do you learn by being kicked? That the scoring system of the game is messed up? That your actions in helping your team are a detriment to your gameplay as a result of bad code? Theres no positive learning that goes on from being kicked from this kind of thing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Negative Scoring Kick

          Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
          Second, yes, there is ONE way around the gate, a way which you cant take vehicles
          Took a vehicle through there 2 days ago.

          Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
          Third, saying "ok, we have this side of the map, so were just going to sit here at a stalemate so we dont have to try to get through a chokepoint" isnt how we do things around here.
          Uh, I have been playing here for what, 2 year now? I have seen this done NUMEROUS times. It is the BEST way to win the map short of somehow knocking them right off the map. You seem to be stuck like everyother PR player in the thought that you must always advance. Really, really wrong.

          Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
          There are times when it doesnt involve smacking into a mountain. I've been solo in a tank, been waxed by another tank and got kicked for negative score. I've seen people in blackhawks get kicked for negative score after being shot down by AA. It's a BUG. Not necessarily operator error. So before you go accusing people of stupidity, be sure to assess the situation.
          Firstly let me say I accused no one of stupidity, I even used myself as an example. If you have such a low score that you get kicked from your vehicle blowing up, perhaps you should try something else. You don't seem to be doing all that much anyway. I am in Al's tank squad very often and we have never come close to being kicked, and sometimes we do some pretty disastorus stuff.


          Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
          Furthermore, I seriously dont see how being kicked is a good learning experience. That point alone makes no sense. What do you learn by being kicked? That the scoring system of the game is messed up? That your actions in helping your team are a detriment to your gameplay as a result of bad code? Theres no positive learning that goes on from being kicked from this kind of thing.
          Being kicked gives you time to think it over.
          I don't think getting in a tank and dying strait away will get you kicked will it? You would have to lose a couple of tanks to do that or have a few teamkills under your belt for that.
          Will you be kicked if your chopper goes down right away will you? Or would you need to lose a few or at least have a few teamkills.

          This sort of brings it to your mind that, hey perhaps using these assets isn't the best idea? If not for everyone, perhaps for me? I am going to go help at that flag or build a CO structure.

          I don't see how this is really an issue that needs addressing. I have only seen people kicked for killing civilians. Never for losing a vehicle. But hey perhaps that doesn't make me the right guy to discuss this then. I will leave it to someone who has been kicked.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Negative Scoring Kick

            Just want to mention that dying in a jet or scout heli straight away will get you kicked..

            Al Fallujah is a flawed map, simple as that. The devs even regret having it in.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Negative Scoring Kick

              Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
              I've been solo in a tank, been waxed by another tank and got kicked for negative score. I've seen people in blackhawks get kicked for negative score after being shot down by AA. It's a BUG.
              Just as an aside, I don't believe that what you are describing is a bug. If you lose a team vehicle you will get a negative score hit...I believe that is what the devs intended in order to encourage people to keep their vehicles alive and not take unnecessary risks.

              It seems like just lowering the threshold would do the trick but I have no idea how hard that is.

              Bernout

              |TG-MD6|

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                Al Fallujah should not even have been in the rotation. The problem is whenever the server crashes, the maplist goes with it, so we have to recreate one.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                  its good.. but...

                  in kashin desert (i think theres bunkers and aiplanes) i was playying at MEC side on MIG29 when a F16 shoted down me.......

                  before i was waiting on the hangar.. and i geted it....

                  when the Falcon shoted me down (baad agality and no ammo) the game freeze and i was kicked form the server .... reason.., negative score...

                  the only i do on the map is wait for the MIG and thats all.. no TK.. only i take off... some evades and destroyed,, negative score¿? too many of time i started whit a dead

                  (not effend guys.. i think is a error sorry :( )

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                    torenico illustrates my point. the BUG that i was pointing out is one that sends your score into the negative by a HUGE amount for dying in a vehicle. I'm talking like an instantaneous negative score in the hundreds of thousands. It's a bug, theres no other explanation for it. If you lost 5 points or 10 points for getting shot down, ok, no biggie. But enough to merit a kick? no way. Thats what needs to be fixed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                      well since points shouldnt really matter in PR, couldnt the devs change it so you gain points when you die in a vehicle? It is possible, someone did it to his server on the Sandbox mod
                      sigpic


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                        In terms of the map choke-point, the way to overcome it is the same way it was settled Sunday night. You have one person blow the wall up for the team- while the rest of the team charges in with knifes and guns once the gates are down - this then gives enough time to have an APC or vehicle go through. The problem this past sunday was that the US team allowed enough time for civs to run back to the gate and start rebuilding - if you have the whole team rush through this choke point onces the gate is down there is no problem to solve. I believe this is the strategy that the gate tries to enforce, it just needs application

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                          Ok, I think that this situation can be overcome with normal gameplay, but maybe the theory that jumped to my mind can be an aswer to Ferris' query....

                          What if, on the maps that cause this issue, instead of the now resulting kick, the civvie killer or copter crasher would go into a low health mode as if wounded? Near death...blurred vision. He would probably die, and if he did he could have a much longer spawn time added. But this could allow for a revival/healing in squad play and not force a kick.

                          Could the BF2 engine make this distinction or should I just have another beer? Guiness anyone?
                          sigpic Sometimes I rip, other times I RIP.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                            Originally posted by Bernout View Post
                            Just as an aside, I don't believe that what you are describing is a bug. If you lose a team vehicle you will get a negative score hit...I believe that is what the devs intended in order to encourage people to keep their vehicles alive and not take unnecessary risks.

                            It seems like just lowering the threshold would do the trick but I have no idea how hard that is.

                            Bernout
                            It was a bug in beta, I dont know if they managed to fix it or not but you wouldnt normally get kicked for crashing the BH afaik.

                            Its not a great injustice anyway. If you get shot down then thats your bad judgement imo. You have just lost a vital vehicle at the beginning of a round without managing to do a single positive thing before hand.
                            All you have to do in a BH is transport a passenger sucessfully, you get score for that now.
                            Dont let a SL boss you about telling you to fly into the middle of a combat zone, people are lazy and walking to the front line is good for the team as they can spot rp to destroy, etc - you are captain of the ship, master of your own fate





                            As far as desert storm goes, I like the map and Ive seen both sides win the game.


                            If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Negative Scoring Kick

                              Originally posted by kazavana View Post
                              In terms of the map choke-point, the way to overcome it is the same way it was settled Sunday night. You have one person blow the wall up for the team- while the rest of the team charges in with knifes and guns once the gates are down - this then gives enough time to have an APC or vehicle go through. The problem this past sunday was that the US team allowed enough time for civs to run back to the gate and start rebuilding - if you have the whole team rush through this choke point onces the gate is down there is no problem to solve. I believe this is the strategy that the gate tries to enforce, it just needs application
                              good in theory, wont work in application. once the flag immediately before the chokepoint gets capped, the insurgents are going to spawn at the gate. the one person who blows the gate is going to kill civilians whether he likes it or not and he is going to get kicked for it. the civilians get no penalty for intentionally putting themselves in harms way. this tactic of putting civvies up on the wall so that they die to the blast and gain their team tickets smacks of suicide tactics to me. granted, its not clearly defined as of yet by our rules because it only happens on a map that apparently isnt supposed to be on the rotation.

                              i think with the right changes and rulesets regarding this kind of play (ive noticed a lot of sacrificial civvies on basrah as well who just run into the middle of an all out gunfight to gain tickets for their team), the map would be a good addition to the rotation. i certainly had a great time playing it with the exception of the negative score kicks that were going on.

                              this being said, i think we oughtta start some kind of discussion regarding appropriate civilian gameplay since we're starting to see people using questionable tactics to advance their team. admin input would be appreciated.

                              Comment

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