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  • Tactics on the decline on the TG server

    Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, but it seems that team play and tactics are starting to decline on the TG server. I know that there are good squad leaders, and good Commanders, but more and more I see a lot of selfish gameplay and poor leadership. It seems worse on password nights.

    My frustrating experience:
    Last night at the beginning of a map, my squad was ordered to a position. I was the only one that moved. I considered sticking closer to my squad, but the map just started, and it was a threat avenue. It seemed smarter to stay out there and warn my squad of any approaching danger, and wait for them to catch up. The move order was updated to a position North of me. My squad started to move, and I glassed a hillside one last time before I moved. Sure enough, an enemy squad was there. My squad was now out in the open, and exposed from an elevated position. Rather than move, I (SAW gunner) engaged in a suppressive fire and was successful in pushing the squad back. My squad mates would have been wiped out.

    The squad waypoint is then updated to a place even more North. I'm starting to get way out of position. I've relayed all of this to my SL, but he just realizes that I'm out of position. He then threatens to kick me from the squad for not staying close, and that I need to be a team player. My blood pressure shot up a little, and that blood vein in my forehead popped up, but subsided quickly. So, the threat now gone, I start to run North to try to link back up. I run for about 100 yards, when he changes his mind and puts the waypoint right where I originally was. I stop running, but then my squad sees me in the field, and they engage me. I'm saying "cease fire, cease fire" and then some 10 year old (from the voice he sounded 10) lectures me on getting out of position. Needless to say, it was quite frustrating. It was obvious that there was no understanding of infantry tactics or squad movement.

    Yes, I'm wining, and I'm now done. In an attempt to try to contribute, rather than just bitch, I'll provide some examples of things that could be "improved".

    Examples include:
    1. APC and Vehicles blowing past people requesting rides. A.P.C. stands for Armored PERSONNEL Carrier. (Armoured: for my Brit buds) Stopping to pick up a few soldiers, and allowing them time to get their kit, may be the only thing that saves you from that Spec Ops that sneaks up on you when you are zoomed in on other targets.
    2. Squads abandoning defensive positions against commander orders because they're board. You can't always be the tip of the spear, sometimes its more valuable to just sit in an area and deny the enemy. Bleeding an enemy is a very valid tactic.
    3. Poor Squad Leadership. You are a leader, not a shooter, your role is to use your men as your weapons, not your individual rifle. I see lots of SLs that expect the medic and riflemen to follow them around and revive/re-arm them while giving no specific orders rather than "follow me".
    4. Tank Support. Yes, its smart to remove the tank threat from the battlefield, and often in BF2 we get single sighted in that we attempt to combat our opposite. For example, tanks go after tanks, and fighters spend all their time flying in circles. An experienced BFer knows that this game is truly a Rock/Paper/Scissors type game, and your team would be better served if you supported the infantry squad that is launching a direct assault. It may not be as fun to sit in one position and suppress the opponent's defenses, but you'll take the flag a lot faster, and when the enemy tank does role up, the "no longer occupied squad" may have a HAT or LAT to lend you a hand.
    5. Planes. In the maps that apply, the most powerful weapon on the field is the A10 and Su24. If you are in a fighter, staying close to this team asset can make all the difference in winning or losing. Keeping that ground attack aircraft up and running as the "hammer of god" as I like to call it, can break any armored assault. Fighters really are only support for the ground attack. Keep that in mind.
    6. Choppers. The transport chopper has mini-guns, but its still a poor offensive tool. Getting those guys standing at the airport into the fight will go a long way to ensuring your teams victory.

    These are just a few things I've seen that I can mention that could be improved. I'm trying to be positive, but I'm 32 and I come to this server for Reality and Tactics. I enjoy the mature gaming community here, and I'd like to see that preserved. In an effort to remain positive, I'll follow up with some Squad Leader recommendations in a bit.

    If you can think of any valuable advice, please feel free to share. My goal really is to improve game play, not just cry in my beer. Thanks all.

    Big Daddy

  • #2
    Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

    Some advice for Squad Leaders: (Please add useful tips)

    1. Lead from the Rear. In real life, leaders are expected to lead from the front, in PR, you are a spawnpoint so it makes much more sense to lead from the rear. That's right, you're now a REMF. OK, this doesn't mean stay in the main base the whole round, just keep your squad between you and the enemy. You never should be the point man, and never lead a dynamic entry.

    2. Diversify your squad. Know the capabilities of your squads weapons, and you'll be able to make snap judgments on the fly as to your ability to engage certain threats/targets. Also, by diversifying, you'll have greater flexibility to react to various threat, be it armor or infantry.

    3. Know the weapons weak points as well. One of the most underused weapons in PR is the SAW. Its volume of fire can suppress or engage on a level that the rest of the squad can't come close to... IF you use it properly. The SAW lacks any real zoom, and on full rock and roll, its hard to stay on target. Use short bursts, and have another team mate spot the rounds and adjust fire. For example, using biniculars, Adjust Fire Left, Adjust Fire Right... Up... Down... Cease Fire Threat Neutralized. Consider using a DMR as an overwatch. Never allow him up front, always use him to protect your primary shooters.

    4. Fire Teams. Consider splitting your squad into various fire teams so that you can more effectively use them.
    For example three fire teams from your 6 man squad:
    Alpha: Entry Team, primary shooters... Spec Ops and Combat Enineer.
    Bravo: Support Team: SAW gunner and Rifleman.
    Charlie: Squad Leader and Medic.

    Your entry team is your most expendable guys. They are most likely your best killers too. Use them as your scouts, and as diversions. They can lay mines, set explosives, they have a grappling hook, and the best CQB weapon in the game. They will lead you into battle.
    Your Support team is just that. They provide cover fire and can suppress positions while your entry team advances. They can also cover a retreat. They are your second level of defense. Always keep them between your enemy and you. The non SAW gunner on this squad is your pivot man. He will fill the gap in whatever your current mission. AT, he's your guy. You can also consider getting a DMR instead of a rifleman, especially on maps with long open areas.

    5. Waypoints. Instead of using general waypoints, use your mic or keyboard to advise your team of the general plan, and use the waypionts for specific threats. For example, if you are on your way to an objective and you see a squad in the open. Your squad should already know the current mission is the objective. Use an attack waypoint to mark the squad, and engage them with full squad fire. Your SAW will dominate in this roll. With the SAW kicking butt, your DMR or Sniper will finish them off. The objective never changed, but with simple flexibility, you were able to remove a threat, and continue on your way.

    6. Stealth and Movement. Control your squad. Getting bored and firing your rifle is the best way in the game to say... "I'm right here, come and kill me". Know when to reign in your squad, and when to space them out. Sneaking along the edge of the map, or along a wall... tighten up the formation. Moving through the hills, spread them out so they are not hit by a single grenade or volley of machine gun fire.

    7. Expectations. Maybe the biggest thing, and one I need to tell myself often. If you are running a tight ship, make sure your squad mates know that. They may want to spawn/charge/die until the points reach zero, but you are interested in winning. Make sure you inform them of the roll your squad will play, your expectations, and also that they understand your orders. I've snapped a one of my squadies before, only to realize that what he did was smart. Make sure they understand you, and you understand what they are doing. A little patience goes a long way. I just need to keep reminding myself of that. :)

    If you have any advice for squad leaders, please feel free to add.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

      I thought of two more.

      8. Bounding Overwatch:
      Move your fire teams one at a time, keeping the other providing "overwatch" for the advancing fire team. That way, the advancing team can just seek cover while you suppress, if they come under fire. This is a very good tactic, especially when you are moving to contact, or in a Close Quarter Battle. They can either bound past one another... or you can keep the Entry team in the lead, and have the support team run to catch up with Entry covers them. Obviously, when you are trying to get somewhere quick, this is a poor tactic. Use it to "move to contact".

      9. Threat areas. Keep in mind that your squad will typically be oriented in a single specific direction. As the squad REMF, its your job to keep them task focused, and make sure no one is sneaking up behind you. You and your medic are Rear Security. (no jokes please)

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      • #4
        Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

        Yep I can sympathise there. Alot of people equate blowing their trumpet and walking around like its a marching band , to teamwork :icon_lol:

        Also I had the same thing with squads expecting the sl to take point yesterday, to be fair they will move up ahead if asked but have to be constantly reminded to do so.


        The TG forum has whole sections and write ups on tactics I think

        Whats DMR and REMF mean?


        If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

          DMR is Designated Marksmen Rifle... PR's Marksman Kit
          REMF is Rear Echelon Mother Trucker... except it's not 'trucker'. Mainly this term is used to describe military personnel that are not exposed to enemy fire. They are "in the rear with the gear".

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

            I was in the squad with you. BigGaayal was the squadleader. I don't think he cares if I mention his name, neither do I as I support him 100%. You moved up without the squad. ALWAYS stay with your squad unless ordered otherwise. I noticed this on mulitple occasions. Unless you are pinned and can't move or are the only one left alive stick with the SL. If you are away, check with the SL or try and make your way back.

            Al was perfectly inline with what he did. He is one of the best PR SLs we have. If you don't like the way things are in the squad, start your own. Don't tell the Sl what to do or where you should be. You can give advice, sure but always stick with him and ask permission.

            You seem to be a fan of tactics so let me ask, in real life do you think your SL would like you away from the squad without his orders? We were even using bounding tactics moving to your position because you were not with the squad.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

              So long as you have sight of the squad and can provide covering fire thats close enough I reckon but at the end of the day the sl is boss so I often move squads if I find myself out of line.


              If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                Originally posted by Gahlas View Post
                I was in the squad with you. BigGaayal was the squadleader. I don't think he cares if I mention his name, neither do I as I support him 100%. You moved up without the squad.
                That's just it. I did exactly as I was ordered to. The waypoint was set, and I moved to it. Before it was moved a second time, I was prone right next to it. What we had was squad leader indecision, it happens, and I've been guilty of it too, but when that happens, settle down on the kicking. Just request everyone regroup and move on. But lets not pretend that I was out of line by following orders. What I did was the smart move. There is a rush to that point at the beginning of the round. Its a great control point. Also, you NEVER group up when moving through the forest. Like I said, there is a serious lack of understanding when it comes to tactics. I know you think you are defending your friend, and that's fine, but I'm not attacking him. There is a learning curve for all, and you can either try to contribute or complain. My post isn't really about him, its just a small example of a lot of problems that are increasing in frequency.

                To answer your last question. That would greatly depend upon the terrain. I really don't want to focus on Al, as I've been in his squad before, as well as his SL, and he's a good teammate. It was just one incident. That's why I didn't bring up names. Its not relevent as it was just one example. But, having said that, we'll use this example. If I were a squad leader, and ordered my squad to move, and my support gunner ran up to the waypiont, and set up a strong position prior to the enemy movement, I would have zero problem with it. It makes tactical sense. I assume what happened to Al, and a lot of squad leaders is that he gave the initial order prior to the Commander coming online, who when he did come online, immediately changed our squads orders. That's fine, happens almost every round. I communicated that I had heavy contact. If the roles were reversed, I would move the squad into a position to try to cover my SAW while he turned his back on the enemy to fall back. If I gave the initial order to move there, as the SL I have to take responsibility for the orders I gave. The circumstances are not anyone's fault, but how we deal with them is.

                For the record, you (almost) NEVER want to group on your squad leader. You're just heavy machine gun bait when you do. The fact that most people don't employ the heavy machine guns correctly is the only reason so many get away with it so often. Ask yourself this, how many times have you taken out an entire squad withe the M203? Most people that have been playing for a while will tell you that they have. Why is that? Squads must learn to keep their spacing. The terrain dictates that spacing.

                Edit to add: I didn't want any names brought into this so we could just focus on the tactics, but its too late so I do want to say that Al did a fantastic job on directing squad fire. A move that saved a flag more than once, and something that I have never seen another SL do. I agree he is one of PR's best SLs, but we can all improve.
                Last edited by BigDaddyMac; 08-03-2007, 10:04 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                  Just a friendly reminder to any who post in this thread. Let's keep it focused on improving tactics and game play and not on individuals.
                  |TG-12th| asch
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                    8. Bounding Overwatch:
                    This is commonly know as frog leaping and is a tactic for infantry squads on almost any modern battle field, I have done it with success a few times, it is very helpfull if you want to get out of a tight spot with minimal losses.
                    There is is one problem with it though: it needs to be drilled and understood by all squad members and is very hard to do on pubby servers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                      All the comments were more then fair in this thread, also most of them were right. I can only say that if had had know you were that kind of player Bidaddaymac, I would certainly have made more use of you. Many players with your mindset have unfortunately migrated to ArmA. Next time you will be sergeant A1.

                      Most of the time, the more my squad follows orders to the letter quickly, the more I would be inclined to try using tactics with fire-teams. This requires at least 3 people you know in the squad.

                      *Disengaging: also a very important tactic often overlooked :).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                        So what ideas to players have to get this type of mentality and understanding known more broadly across the TG PR player-base?
                        |TG-12th| asch
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                          People generally appreciate immediate feedback. Thats why alot of people will just take the shortest path and do the most obvious thing.
                          Just saying thanks or well done when someone follows your orders makes a difference imo. Or emphasing things the squad has achieved like that by defending a flag we just allowed the team to advance flags.
                          If the game had some booming commander type voice every time you did something tactically correct, people would do it more, so you have to make the shortfall.

                          I noticed the game gives 5 points for every helicopter passenger sucessfull conveyed now, handing out info they may not be aware of helps too. Bunkers give tickets every 10 mins, come help me repair this please, that'd help.
                          Pointing out negatives is ok too so long as you dont go on about it, it is a game after all.


                          If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                            Originally posted by asch View Post
                            So what ideas to players have to get this type of mentality and understanding known more broadly across the TG PR player-base?
                            This starts with the SL, and for all of us TG'ers that means us. I know that no one wants to take the time to "teach" in the middle of a game, but this can happen more often. I have literally taken almost a whole round teaching basic INF movements, while fulfilling CO orders. Does it take a long time? YES. The rewards far outweigh the time and energy sink. Can this tick off the other squads? Absolutely. What you gain in the end is more well rounded players and it gets them away from the pub style and more into our mentality. Remember that Tactical is ahead of Gamer....which I think is very important. If more of us made an effort to train up the new members, and maybe more of us do than I am aware of, then this will improve our server.

                            Maybe have a HUGE training session..with both sides (64) filled with players. At the end have one big scrim using the tactics they just learned. You could start with a cadre of 2 CO's and 12 SL's consisting of TG'ers and the rest could be new members or memebers that have joined within the last 4 months or so. I know that the TGU probably does this, but make it more published, announce it in game...etc etc etc.

                            Just my two horns.....

                            B
                            "Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." Gen. George Patton

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tactics on the decline on the TG server

                              Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post
                              *Disengaging: also a very important tactic often overlooked :).
                              Do you favour the "throw smoke and all run away", reverse bounding over-watch or the "Australian Peel*"?

                              * Tail end guy blazes off a mag towards the engaging enemy and then rotates towards the front of the disengaging "pack". Next rearmost guy takes his places and shoots his weapon empty. Rinse and repeat until out of harm's way.


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