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  • Cheap or tactical?

    Yesterday I led an excellent group of guys in my "PR VETS" squad on 7 Gates upon game commencement we went around the far north border and into the basement at the temple. I ordered my squadmembers to hold fire and we barricaded ourselves into the basement to wait for the river fort to be captured.

    Apparently the rest of the team didn't like it so much. I had seen several squads do this before on the server with no repercussions. So if this isn't good TG practice, I have led several squads before on the Ghost Train map to immediately take a boat to the tunnel flag, set up mines on the railroad tracks, and then hide inside the bunker while waiting for enemy APCs.

    So, is this cheap or tactical?
    Last edited by Betterdeadthanred; 09-03-2007, 10:07 AM.


    Community, not corporation!

    TG-Irr BetterDeadThanRe(D)

    Xfire-BetterDeadThanRed1

    Irregs PR CO

  • #2
    Re: Cheap or tactical?

    I'm going with "Things which are against the TG PRM Server Rules for $200, please Bob."

    "2) Players are not allowed into the enemy UCB for any reason other than for the sole purpose of destroying the enemy's assets (artillery/uav/radar). Restricted acts include:


    4. Entering the UCB with the intent to lay mines / c4.

    Addendum: In the project reality mod, a main (base) flag shall be considered a UCB unless the AAS Headquarters (HQ) message states to capture it."

    Going after Temple on Ghost Train is an entirely different kettle of fish to going after Temple on 7 Gates as the former is not a Main Base.

    Entering Temple (PLA Main Base in 7 Gates) before you've capped River Fort to do anything other than destroy the commander assets is bad juju.


    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Cheap or tactical?

      I think it has been discussed before that forward attacks on Temple in 7 Gates are not allowed... Tunnel in Ghost Train is another story as it is not a main base.
      Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

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      • #4
        Re: Cheap or tactical?

        Fair enough.


        Community, not corporation!

        TG-Irr BetterDeadThanRe(D)

        Xfire-BetterDeadThanRed1

        Irregs PR CO

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        • #5
          Re: Cheap or tactical?

          Yes, it's pretty simple. Temple = last flag on map = UCB until the flag before it is captured. Tunnel, as it is not the last flag, is fair game at all times.

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          • #6
            Re: Cheap or tactical?

            My point of getting angry with your squad was that most of the Chinese players expect their main to be off limits until AAS tells them to defend it. I see nothing tactical about sneaking behind enemy lines when the enemy expects you to follow server rules and not be there that soon. What commenced was 5 minutes of hide-and-go-seek tracking down 25 Chinese players while waiting for 300 tickets to bleed out. Killed what usually is a fun map.
            |TG-X|WAREHOUSE

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            • #7
              Re: Cheap or tactical?

              I remember being in a squad that just went all the way behind the map and got to the main (Chinese) base in seven gates but we were strictly ordered to not fire unless fired upon and to try to be "Ghosts". We got into the basement of the main and just camped there without even hurting anyone at all and when the river fort was capped we pretty much won the round. Nobody (not even on the other team) complained in the text.

              Damnit Blizzard, fix ZvT already >.<
              In Soviet Russian, Arma admins are nice to you!

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              • #8
                Re: Cheap or tactical?

                I did the same on TG a few days ago. I moved up to the temple with my squad.

                Orders were clear: "Do not engage the enemy", "Do not destroy rally points","Do not fire a single shot". Our objective was clearly given to the squad. Infiltrate and hide.

                Turned out we finished the game without a single kill. One flag capture. One brilliant tactical victory.

                Considering ethics and sportsmanship :
                Some will say this is a cheap tactic. Other will say it's a totally valid tactic and, in the case of Seven Gates, even predictable. Myself, on that map, every second time I spawn or so, I check out temple to make sure it's clear.
                Anyway, it's really a question of opinion and personal values whether advanced infiltration of flags (regardless of which flag it is) is a good sportsmanship. I do not think it is bad, but I can see how it could be frustrating for a disorganized team.

                Considering AAS gamemode:
                The main idea of Assault And Secure, as I get it, is to focus gameplay on specific objectives. One major problem of BF2 is that with all the flags in play at the same time, use of tactics becomes meaningless and the game is a big free for all where squads go to and from any flags all the time. AAS, with flag capture in a specific order, changes that. Now, one could ask if attacking a flag not in play is a valid tactic in the spirit of AAS. I personally think there is a good difference in attacking a flag not in play (forward attack) and infiltrating a flag not in play to facilitate ulterior capture. While the first is clearly out of the bounds of AAS, the seconds seems like a valid strategical move unique to the gameplay AAS creates. Furthermore, it is important to point out that while a squad is elsewhere, infiltrating a flag not in play, it is not at the battlefront, making the game much harder for the rest of the team. The tactics has its advantages, but is risky. The last time I did it at Seven Gates, a commander came in place mid-game and wasn't happy with our move and I considered more than once moving out to attack the active flag as out team was having a hard time. Leaving the team to infiltrate another flag is not an easy decision.

                Concerning the rules:
                I think this is a gray zone in TG rules. They say you can always enter an UCB (with permission of the CO) to destroy assets and you can even stay there to engage people repairing those assets. Also, the spirit of the TG UCB rule is clear: prevent spawn camping (and maybe base raping). Infiltrating an UCB (even a main) without engaging any targets seems like good behavior within the spirit of those rules. Of course, I didn't write those rules and I'm only interpreting them.

                Lets review those rules...
                Taken form:
                http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...uidelines.html

                2) Players are not allowed into the enemy UCB for any reason other than for the sole purpose of destroying the enemy's assets (artillery/uav/radar). Restricted acts include:

                a. Entering the UCB with the intent on killing a disoriented spawning player.
                b. Entering the UCB with the intent of stealing any vehicle.
                c. Flying over the UCB for air raids / bombing runs.
                d. Entering the UCB with the intent to lay mines / c4.

                Addendum: In the project reality mod, a main (base) flag shall be considered a UCB unless the AAS Headquarters (HQ) message states to capture it.

                These acts are restricted not to deny valid real-life tactics, but to ensure the quality of game play. Rule #2 must be a simple and clear rule that is easily administered and does not vary on a map-by-map basis.

                This rules seems clear to me. You can ONLY enter an UCB to engage assets. Considering that alone, infiltrating an UCB to facilitate ulterior capture would be prohibited.

                But a list of specific prohibited actions is also listed. Infiltration of an UCB does not touch any of these prohibited actions.

                The last paragraph is the most interesting. It states the intent of those rules: ensure quality of the gameplay. Whereas forwards attack have a clear effect on the quality of the gameplay, It is disputable to say that infiltrations as discussed here have a negative impact on gameplay. On the other hand, it brings a new tactical challenge to the game not available without AAS.

                UCB Assaults
                Players acting within their commander's authorization MAY attack structures (UAV Trailer, Radar Dish & Artillery) within the enemy UCB, vehicles within the UCB are OFF LIMITS. These attackers may also STAY in the opposition's UCB to make sure the destroyed structures STAY destroyed. It is the responsibility of the commander to determine if maintaining an assault on the enemy UCB is tactically viable and strategically advisable.

                It is the responsibility of the team which owns the UCB to play the necessary defense to remove the attack from their UCB, even if it means pulling soldiers, or even squads, out of the field of battle and "back to base."

                Conclusion
                During an attack on an enemy's UCB, you MAY attack enemy units attempting to repair UCB assets and may NOT spawn camp.

                It is the responsibility of the attacker to not spawn camp while in the opposition UCB, for any reason or amount of time. The attacker may and should defend himself and his fellow soldiers from attack during his objective in the UCB, but at no point may he spawn camp, even if the only alternative is death and/or failing his UCB objective.
                This second part on UCB again states the possibility of entering an UCB to destory assets. It also adds that players can defend themselves while in the UCB and it is the responsibility of the other team to "remove" them from their UCB (all under CO approbation).

                Again, the spirit of the rules is clear: prevent spawn camping.

                All that considered, at first sight it is not allowed in the rules, but... Considering the interpretation one can make of the intent of these rules, it could be acceptable.

                The decision is left to the admins and their own interpretation of the given rules.


                Edit: kittykatnub, I think you were in my squad there :)

                Also, I don't know if it shows, but I've been spending the whole weekend writing our new PR server rules. I'm almost starting to feel like a lawyer with rule interpretation and working on legal stuff to make sure one rule doesn't invalid one another or is applicable, etc. pfeeew.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cheap or tactical?

                  Originally posted by w.WAREHOUSE View Post
                  My point of getting angry with your squad was that most of the Chinese players expect their main to be off limits until AAS tells them to defend it. I see nothing tactical about sneaking behind enemy lines when the enemy expects you to follow server rules and not be there that soon. What commenced was 5 minutes of hide-and-go-seek tracking down 25 Chinese players while waiting for 300 tickets to bleed out. Killed what usually is a fun map.
                  Considering the rules, as written, one can NEVER consider any flag (main, last ucb, what ever) off limits. There can always be enemy at your UCBs to seek and destory assets. It is false to say that the rules state that these flags are off limits.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cheap or tactical?

                    So what happens when someone spawns in front of you? You look away and die or spawnkill that person?

                    I think the rules clearly state the only purpose of entering a main base is destroying assets. The less people present in a UCB, the less chance someone gets spawnkilled... It sure is a great strategy when you succeed but I 've seen tons of rounds where it goes wrong due to the rest of your team being overpowered at the flag(s) in play. It 's quite frustrating when you 're being raped trying to cap a flag while 6 of your men are doing nothing useful.

                    Just my thoughts.
                    Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cheap or tactical?

                      So what happens when someone spawns in front of you? You look away and die or spawnkill that person?
                      I try to stay away from where people spawn.

                      If that happens (and yes, it does) 99% of the time, the enemy who just spawned will run off unaware of my presence.

                      Furthermore, this hypothetical situation could arise even in the even of assaulting a base to destroy the assets. I even would think that it's more likely to happen in this situation as you'd have to go out of cover to attack assets and in area where people spawn. That is not the case when you are infiltrating a flag.

                      It 's quite frustrating when you 're being raped trying to cap a flag while 6 of your men are doing nothing useful.
                      I wouldn't say its not useful as if that was the case we wouldn't even have this discussion in the first place.

                      It is a risky strategy and the decision to do it or not relies on a lot of different factors. That the point of strategic games. Some decisions are good, other not. Some times a decision that seem not so good and risky can turn out to change the game completely. But the fact that it might be a bad strategical move (and frustrating for the affected team) on some occasions shouldn't make it prohibited. Of course, of the CO does not allow the tactic, than the squad's SL is in direct violation of the TG rules.

                      I agree with you that, at first read, entering an UCB is not allowed by the rules ( I said that myself in my previous post ). But, on second thought, this is left open to debate and a gray zone due to the intent of the rules as mentioned in my quotes above.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cheap or tactical?

                        Well if a person spawns right in front of you you shouldn't have been in that spot in the first place, the spawns are most of the time away from the flag itself.
                        Unless you are destroying assets. But if your fired upon you are allowed to fire back in self defense. The second they fire 1 bullet you can kill them.

                        Damnit Blizzard, fix ZvT already >.<
                        In Soviet Russian, Arma admins are nice to you!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cheap or tactical?

                          In theory, you guys are 100% right... but how hard will it be to monitor this for admins? If everybody would actually obey the rules (which we all know never happens on a public server), this might be considered a valid tactic, but I think the rule is made primarily to AVOID spawnkilling. Allowing a full squad in a UCB would only increase the chances of someone being spawnraped.
                          Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

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                          • #14
                            Re: Cheap or tactical?

                            A full squad is already allowed in a UCB for asset denial. The difficulty on an administrative standpoint is already there.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cheap or tactical?

                              Waaaiiiit just a minute here guys...

                              Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, if so, please enlighten me.

                              Someone is saying it is against the rules for a squad to jump 2 flags ahead and enter a currently UCB where they kill nobody just to be able to hopefully camp a secure room to be able to cap that flag once it comes into play because you aren't helping your teammates.

                              Yet it is ok to jump 1 flag ahead and do that very same thing?

                              Alex, could I have "double standard" for $500 please?

                              This is exactly why I have always said in regards to these types of missions (deviating from the AAS messages) they should only be able to occur with the CO's orders. You have no more or less right to lock yourself into the tunnel then you do the temple on 7gates when neither flag is "in play". Same goes for any situation where you are advancing on a flag in anticipation of the rest of your team pulling their weight along with your own.

                              You can't have your cake and eat it too, it's either both "strategies" are legit or neither is. Either you have to blindly follow AAS messages without CO orders otherwise or you do not have to follow them.

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