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  • Discipline

    ITT: We discuss the various forms of Discipline and give pointers to both SL's and SM's

    1. Firing Discipline - Possibly the most important in PR. It works in several ways.
    -There is appropriate amounts of fire and inappropriate amounts of fire. For example, if you feel 1 nade is appropriate, throw 1 nade. Don't toss all 3/4 nades at a lone infantry unless you really have to.
    -Weapons hot or weapons cold: If a SL tells you to only fire if fired upon, it's generally for a good reason. If you're 100m from an enemy, and you're busy planting a rally, and you fire at said infantry...most likely, you just gave away the position of your rally. Another pointer on cold weapons...if you have a very loud weapon, try to fire the LEAST in your squad. For example, a M14 is really, really loud.

    2. Kit Discipline - There should not be much to explain here. If you're told to have one kit, stick to it. Ask for permission elsewise.

    As BigGaayAl explains...

    Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post
    Do not at ANY time grab a speciality kit without SL permission....EVER!

    I see many people do this, including many TG players, and ticks me off beyond reason (almost :)). It is totally impossible for a SL, that is making an effort to lead, to function if he doesn't have the strictest control over the kits, especially in this mod.

    And for the love of god, if anyone does pick-up a kit without permission, let it not be a weapon with a scope. That just shows poor attitude.

    I am going to start kicking everyone that says "Yeah I picked it up from a dead guy" without warning I think. /rant-and-sort-of-advice-too

    PS: I so miss the 1stMIP where you could be damned certain that everyone would have the correct kit all round. A toast to them!
    3. COMM Discipline - Ah yes, the real reason why I'm making this post. No names here, just informing some people that may visit the forums...

    As stated in the TG Primer...

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics..
    However, first and foremost, TG is about HAVING A GOOD TIME with OTHER PEOPLE! *Gasp!* But there is a time and a place for certain topics of discussion. Non-essential information should be kept off the comm's in combat and other attention-needy situations. Waiting for a ride? Go on ahead, talk it up. If there's nothing pressing, talk about what you wish, SL PERMITTING.

    Another thing...IF you're reporting something relevant in game, try to keep it brief! In the middle of combat, we dont need every detail. For example, "Enemy east, under the tree. I'm hit, medic!" rather than "Enemy east underneath the tree, I cant shoot him but he can shoot me, how is he doing that, what is going on with squad 3 why aren't they helping us?"

    Try to keep it brief. We don't expect Military code, or any of that. Just try to maintain discipline. You dont need to know fancy words to describe things. "Up, under, down, right, left, north, south, east, west, on, top, around, behind...etc."

    Utilize your Page up and Page down buttons! You don't necessarily have to verbally confirm every order.


    And finally...

    You add some.
    Skud



  • #2
    Re: Discipline

    If you notice something the squad leader doesn't appear to notice (flag status change that makes your mission pointless, downed rally point) let them know and wait for a response. Call it a suggestion too if you suggest an alternate approach. As with directions keep it brief and simple, let the squad leader decide what to do.

    example: "Squad leader, we have lost West Beach with no friendlies in that area and can no longer cap Dam. Should we fall back?"

    Don't fire the .50 cal on vehicles unless you sight enemies or have let the squad know you are figuring out the fire estimation when you first get in (some of the guns fire a bit above the barrel, so a shot or two might be good when first loading to have it in mind). Other than that one test fire, do not fire the gun again unless you are trying to kill something. The gunfire carries a lot further than the engine.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Discipline

      And for the love of everything Holy...don't shoot the Blackhawk Miniguns for no reason.
      "Dirtboy is super awesome, and chicks dig him too!"- Everyone



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Discipline

        Most importantly. Do not change your kits once your squad leader has issued you one. I dispise it when i tell someone to be medic. Then 10 minutes later when i need a medic i see that same person as a marksman or sniper.
        Respect is earned.

        |TG-6th|Alpha

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Discipline

          "We don't expect Military code"

          Speak for your self : )

          There is another disiplin which is the most hampering one. Attention.

          You can be the best pwnzor in the world, you can get 30 kills and only 2 deaths as a rifleman. You can take out whole squads possibly... But when your attention begins to wane you become self centered in a very sick way. You no longer play the game for joy or thrill or fun and teamwork but as a drone for your attention.

          The limits of the in-game situations begin to pull you down into this drone as you no longer have anything unknown to look out for. You have seen pretty much every situation in the game, died and killed in almost every possible way, seen the patterns and repeating phenomena that take place and "know" whats coming. The passion for the game is lost, the will to bring your human creativity to the field dissipates, you are now simply droning on this addiction. And it's not that there is nothing left to try or see it's that you no longer have a care or desire or passion to try it out...

          I think it's at this point that teamwork and squad play begin to become undesirable. The truth is that there are people who are here for reasons other then "Squad play and tactics". But i try not to be this way. I look at these FPS games like a sport, they entail all the seriousness and skill and dedication that a regular physical sport entails and i think that even in "public servers" there should be what i can only call a "respect" for the fact that we are running around and killing eachother in digital worlds. Spending hours on end in some cases. I'm not here to run around aimlessly to familiar places which have high probability of enemy troops so that i can get some kills or drone my attention... I want to lay waste to the enemy in such a skilled and precise fashion that they are FORCED to adapt the same tactics of precise or skill or they face a never ending cycle of 40 second wait screens. And the only way to get that level of ownage is to work as a team.. sure you can be a pwnzor solo wolf and wreak havoc on everything that comes your way but if you dont have the restraint to withhold your power-ranger skills and release the pwnage at the correct time in accordance with other members then your worthless in my eyes.
          You know, because then your the solo dude whos stuck in the city after the whole squad is dead but you are still killing people, so you think to your self "These guys are idiots look how much i am killing them they should just do what i do"... But what you do is zone out tunnel vision like you are freaking master chief or what ever the hell augmented nano agent. But i don't blame you, whats the point of trying to work as a team when you can take down whole squads by your self. Selfish.

          We should not let the game become an addiction to drone our attention away from being creative and this takes discipline. For that is the essence of squad play i feel, the organized squad allows for a flexible creativity on the battle field. But you cannot manage this if the squad mates are droned from doing the same things over and over, and if something new comes along and fails in their mind it would probably be because it's too complex or pointless from the begging and not because they did not try hard enough, furthering their lack of desire to work as a team or be creative. Like movement drills... I would love if my squad had movement techniques and the thing is that i know for certain they could do it... but there is really no reason so why? In most peoples experiance things like "movement techniques" of covering "danger zones" as you move slowly forward are simply unnecessary wastes of time.. You can "get more accomplished" by rushing forward shoot a few, die and repeat.. No need to try any complex infantry tactic since in your mind this is just a waste of time... So i say have some respect, i don't want to die and you should not either... (thats why when you get shot with bullets in the game you should get shocked by electrodes).

          So to sum it up i say that one should learn discipline of attitude and attention during play so as to not allow the game to become an addiction which serves no more then to indulge your mind in a repetitive series of competitive scenes. (i.e leet pwnzor solo wolf who knows so much that merely the sound of another's voice is an indication that "i am better then this guy"...)

          I'm here to be lead or to lead other human beings into a creative endeavor against other human beings. A sport if you will, but a much more flexible one. Have enough respect for what we are doing so that the environment stays lively and not like a droned vanilla karkand 24/7 pub server.
          listen close
          to the rat-tat-tat-
          as the metal flies,
          we should know as fact:
          that unearthly demons
          are part of our pack,
          and as we engage you
          in battle we pass.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Discipline

            nice post billy and i agree that is the way alot of veteran players play the game, there is not too much thinking and too much mindless killling, ruining the experience.

            when i try to slow down my squad and get them to think alot more tactically, usually i get complaints from EVERYONE, the commander, the other squads, my own squadmates, and its really a shame cause trying to play in a slow, tactical way is looked down upon by most players, cause we arent all tard rushing the flags 'like we should'.

            This particularly happens when I try playing in a realistic APC squad, a tactical infantry squad and a realistic Helicopter transport /Helicopter assault squad.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Discipline

              There is a way to play "too tactical" in which important squads are responding too slow for BF2/PR game play. It actually has more of an effect when 2 or 3 squads are doing it at the same time and just aren't responding to flag loss and the enemy steamrolls the flags. Taking time to regroup the squad is fine, a preemptive strike on the next flag by one squad while the current flag is being kept is good.

              Going on a 20 minute sneak mission by two squads while the team is on a bleed is bad. There is a balance between super tactics and a meat grinder. I enjoy the 6th because it is in the balanced area.
              |TG-6th|Snooggums

              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Discipline

                Always nice to see a thread to remind us of the essentials.

                Very nice post indeed Billy. I get your theory about creativity vs the droning concept you speak of. Without some level of social organisation (brought by tactics, strategies, movement techniques etc.)

                Any fps game tends to get old very quickly, and descends into a mindless automated fragfest, whatever the respawn. What you describe about veteran players that indeed know how to do lots of damage, yet fail on squad discipline is indeed quite common. The thing is, it is very much possible that NOT letting a veteran do his own thing in your squad may lose you the game more often then not. At some point, me and many TG, choose to sacrifice some of that effectiveness, for the sake of immersion, creativity, fun.

                THis brings me to Fuzzhead's comment about how players squads and commanders give him a hard time when trying to bring some immersion to a round. The problem is that currently it is still very important to rush out at the start of a round. The ground you cap and disallow the enemy in the first ten minutes win many games. If your whole team takes the time to set up fireteams, kits, roles properly at the start of the game, you have actually lost the round before you enter the battlefield. The enemy rushers will have capped lots of flags, and may have dug in at the first grey flag to stop you (cfr mine flag on qwai river).

                An illustration.
                Yesterday I played a very nice round on pw night using fireteams in Operation Phoenix. After 5 minutes, I had a good rallypoint up, kits set, and fireteams assigned. We moved south at the flag in play on CO orders, and as we are about to set up a suppression element, the CO orders us to go to the last us flag, as it was soon to be in play. After a few tries, we got it and the round was over.
                It was a fun round, and I think our team appreciated our contribution, but by the time we were set up, the rest of the team had done the hard work, capped all the grey flags, and was attacking their second to last flag. If everyone on our team would have played the same style, we would have lost most of the map in those first minutes, instead of capping most flags.
                Perhaps the first spawns could be delayed in some way (like taking out all RP's until 5 minutes into the game) to lengthen the time before game start, since it is currently already at the highest setting. I usually get into a map at 40seconds to round start. By the time the squad is filled, the game starts, leaving no time to organise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Discipline

                  Originally posted by billyinorganic View Post
                  ...like you are freaking master chief or what ever the hell augmented nano agent.
                  Too true.
                  |TG-Irr| westyfield

                  Sig pic by Sonic, avatar by Chalcas. Thanks!
                  Irregular since 2007.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Discipline

                    Hey now

                    What really chaps my ass, either as an SL or regular player, is when the squad leader (and usually the rest of the squad) is waiting for a lagging member, and you ask that guy to get a move on, and you get a "hold on". Now Im not perfect, and I sometimes get caught up in the action too and give a "hold on". And sometimes there is no alternative - you're pinned and moving toward the group will be death, or you're in a pivotal position in a battle and really can't abandon at the moment. But often times you ask someone to move it, and they're just sitting there on a flag with 20 other people, or running around in circles looking for the enemny that was spotted a couple minutes ago, etc. That's all fine and good, but 9 times out of 10, when you're being asked to move it's for good team economics. Sure, you may get off the flag when you almost have it, but it's probably to get a rally point down nearby so that you can keep attacking the flag, or to effectively hold the flag with a respawn. Other times it's to get a pre-emptive move on the next objective and time is of the upmost importance. Whenever I realize that Im holding up the squad I feel like a total dick.

                    So the next time your whole squad is yelling at you to move it, and you give a "hold on", you've probably just screwed your squad and the entire team.

                    Another thing is the defense marker, or objective markers in general. So often I will roll up to a flag as SL, throw up a defense marker, start running around trying to get my squad to get mines down and ammo dropped and people in position, only to look at my minimap and see half my squad running off with the main force to the next flag. What's that all about?

                    For me the game can run the spectrum of extreme fun to extreme frustration all based on the quality of the squad / squadleader. A good squad / squadleader will almost always equal fun, even when your team is losing. This is because you at least know you're trying. When you are with some d-bag squad / squadleader and you are getting plowed by the other team, you cant help but be frustrated knowing things could be better.

                    - This game rules.

                    J
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Discipline

                      Originally posted by TeflonDon View Post
                      Hey now

                      What really chaps my ass, either as an SL or regular player, is when the squad leader (and usually the rest of the squad) is waiting for a lagging member, and you ask that guy to get a move on, and you get a "hold on". Now Im not perfect, and I sometimes get caught up in the action too and give a "hold on". And sometimes there is no alternative - you're pinned and moving toward the group will be death, or you're in a pivotal position in a battle and really can't abandon at the moment. But often times you ask someone to move it, and they're just sitting there on a flag with 20 other people, or running around in circles looking for the enemny that was spotted a couple minutes ago, etc. That's all fine and good, but 9 times out of 10, when you're being asked to move it's for good team economics. Sure, you may get off the flag when you almost have it, but it's probably to get a rally point down nearby so that you can keep attacking the flag, or to effectively hold the flag with a respawn. Other times it's to get a pre-emptive move on the next objective and time is of the upmost importance. Whenever I realize that Im holding up the squad I feel like a total dick.

                      So the next time your whole squad is yelling at you to move it, and you give a "hold on", you've probably just screwed your squad and the entire team.

                      Another thing is the defense marker, or objective markers in general. So often I will roll up to a flag as SL, throw up a defense marker, start running around trying to get my squad to get mines down and ammo dropped and people in position, only to look at my minimap and see half my squad running off with the main force to the next flag. What's that all about?

                      For me the game can run the spectrum of extreme fun to extreme frustration all based on the quality of the squad / squadleader. A good squad / squadleader will almost always equal fun, even when your team is losing. This is because you at least know you're trying. When you are with some d-bag squad / squadleader and you are getting plowed by the other team, you cant help but be frustrated knowing things could be better.

                      - This game rules.

                      J
                      I agree completely. Usually if my SL asks me to move up and I am unable to, I communicate and tell him why I can't move up, and if I think it would be beneficial for me to stay put I will usually ask permission to stay. When I SL and people run off and don't follow orders I usually warn them one or two times, and then kick.

                      The best remedy to a douchy squad is to make a new squad yourself! Even if your new to SL'ing just let your SM's know and invite a couple regulars into your squad over TS or ingame

                      I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Discipline

                        Alot of problem players say "It's just a game"

                        It is. They're right. It is just a game. But alot of us have fun doing things OUR way in OUR squads. Even TG'ers get kicked from my squads, because they simply wont go along with me. If you dont like my squad, get out. If you dont want to follow my orders without any real reason, make your own 1 man dinky squad.

                        Don't be afraid to be strict. Give warnings. It's just a game, but if they dont like how you play, you can just kick them and be done with it.

                        Nobody steps up as SL to be talked down to by thier own squad. Criticism is NOT the same as undermining.
                        Skud


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Discipline



                          If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Discipline

                            Saber tooth tiger..

                            "Power cannot be given, it must be taken"

                            hehe..
                            listen close
                            to the rat-tat-tat-
                            as the metal flies,
                            we should know as fact:
                            that unearthly demons
                            are part of our pack,
                            and as we engage you
                            in battle we pass.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Discipline

                              Napoleon Bonaparte and more recently a tag line for the godfather films


                              If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

                              Comment

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