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  • The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

    Hey

    For awhile Ive been wondering about the (im)proper use of the anti tank weapons, and having just read through Skud's post about gentlemanly conduct including the use of grenage launchers I figured now is a good time to get it all out in black letter writing. I know there are bits and pieces of this general rule spread around different posts in the forum but I can't find anything concrete.

    I know whenever I get killed by a HAT or LAT as infrantry I get annoyed. Grenade launchers less so.

    But I also know that when I am running around with either of those three weapons out (which is frequently these days), and an enemy jumps out in front of me and starts shooting, the last thing Im worried about is some rule that says I cant shoot someone with them. I am quick with buttons in general, but probably because of my 7 years playing CS using the mousewheel instead of the number keys to switch weapons, I have trouble switching quickly and effectively in PR. That being said, unless I mess up, I dont use the explosives in any close quarters where I would get a suicide, and I never choose to use one in lieu of a rifle.

    Just yesterday I was playing on Kashan desert and at one point I had my HAT cocked and loaded and was running around a corner to get an APC. I came around the corner, didnt see the APC, but instead saw a dude looking down his iron sites at me. I instinctually shot him in the face with my rocket and didnt think twice about it. But then I got admonished by a TG squad mate not to "HAT snipe" when I started cheering into my mic. I dont care what anyone says, that's (a) not HAT sniping, and (b) should be fair game. Admittedly, a few minutes later, my squad was getting picked off by a sniper about 1000 meters away in the hills and I pwned him with a HAT. Now that's definitely a questionable maneuver, but when my squad is getting picked off in the open and my choices are to join them in the respawn que or to protect my squadleader and whover is left, Im going to go with the latter, the rules be damned. Plus, it was an awesome shot. And it's not a total waste of the HAT since you get two rockets. The LATs suck so bad that each one is precious and wasting them is just dumb.

    So I am hoping someone here would spell out exactly what the "rules" are for such things. I think that using an AT against infrantry as a normal practice is wrong and should be punishable. But to use it in a common sense way in an excited situation should not get you in trouble.

    And I had no idea there was some contention with the grenage launcher. I have trouble enough as it is hitting stuff with it that I never choose to use it in close quarters. But again, when I have it drawn and someone comes at me, I say screw the rules. And to whoever did the intentional C4 toss / jumping suicide at my squad and me yesterday, shame on you.

    But how do people feel about the C4 as a nade replacement, such as in one of the east / west towers on Mestia? It sure gets the job done when it's tossed in that little window.

    Thanks

    Tef
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

    How can you get annoyed with being taken out by GLs? Killing infantry is what GLs are designed and intended for!

    An accidental reactive HAT shot is one thing.

    A second and deliberate HAT shot against a single enemy soldier is another thing entirely... I'd have been on the TG TS channel getting you kicked and banned if I'd seen that.

    The rules are there to make PRM as realistic, tactical and fun as possible.

    If you don't like the TG PRM rules, I strongly suggest using another server to save the TG Admins the trouble of having to kick/ban you the next time you decide to breach the server rules.

    Tossing C4 into structures is an entirely and realistic tactic. The old school name for such explosives is "satchel charges".


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    • #3
      Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

      Originally posted by Terminal Boy View Post
      How can you get annoyed with being taken out by GLs? Killing infantry is what GLs are designed and intended for!

      An accidental reactive HAT shot is one thing.

      A second and deliberate HAT shot against a single enemy soldier is another thing entirely... I'd have been on the TG TS channel getting you kicked and banned if I'd seen that.

      The rules are there to make PRM as realistic, tactical and fun as possible.

      If you don't like the TG PRM rules, I strongly suggest using another server to save the TG Admins the trouble of having to kick/ban you the next time you decide to breach the server rules.

      Tossing C4 into structures is an entirely and realistic tactic. The old school name for such explosives is "satchel charges".
      Not very helpful. Anyone else?
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

        I think that you are okay with that first shot, but the second is questionable. However, we must temper this with the knowledge that although in real-life you would counter-snipe or call in air-support, those options were not available. I'm reasonably certain that the LAT is a weapon deployed in RL, and it is probably used against strong-points. Now, because it has some shortcomings in PR (notably the one-shot thing, I mean come on, please give us 2 shots!), people don't use it as much. I think using the HAT against a strong-point is ok. Maybe we need to review this.

        In short, I think you are 'in the right' on both cases, but only then. While I would say "Don't run around by yourself with the HAT", I know that sometimes you will be, so an instinctive shot can be forgiven. Plus the pistol is, well, just a pistol. The second shot: A little more iffy, but I think legal. Just don't start doing it as a career.


        P.S. I see a lot of people using 'realistic' and 'tactical' when bashing new ideas and tactics. Well, ask yourself, is it really not realistic? Don't be a douche, look it up, then decide: "Are we sacrificing gameplay for realism?"
        playing off the TG server feels like we're playing 2142 on easy mode~Fehmart

        I'm going to close my eyes until it's over~Experiment, commenting on my driving

        "Get it up quickly and beat it hard."~Jonan
        I don't get a bonus DVD? My life has lost all meaning.~Zoopy_T

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        • #5
          Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

          That is more helpful, but I want the actual rules spelled out. Nothing is more annoying than being punished / yelled at for something you dont know is wrong.

          And please no more useless crap like "follow the rules or go to another server". The whole purpose of the post was to learn the rule.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

            In regards to your 2nd shot, let's look at another example:

            A squad member is alone with a H-AT at a flag after his entire squad was taken out, do you think it should be ok to shoot at the enemy squad to save the flag capture, bunker, and commander truck?
            *Note that the player's objective was enemy spotting and defending this flag.

            Anyway, the final result was the player did not shoot because he abides by server rules. Hence, we lost the flag and assets. Then got pushed back to main and eventually surrounded by multiple tanks.

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            • #7
              Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

              The first post in «Intended use of vehicles & weapons» is quite clear.

              DB

              «That looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.» Donrhos

              | |





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              • #8
                Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                Originally posted by Dick Blonov View Post
                The first post in «Intended use of vehicles & weapons» is quite clear.
                Good reference...thanks. Can we get this stickied?

                Usually when I see the infraction it involves the player shooting the LAT at the ground by infantry which is clearly not allowed based on the guideline. Personally, I'd rather see the rule simplified and just not allow any AT use against infantry except when they are in an enclosed space; i.e. hardened position.

                Bernout

                |TG-MD6|

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                • #9
                  Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                  Thanks Bolonov, it did clear up some stuff for me.

                  I was surprised that Asch was fine with long distance LAT sniping, or with using it against Infrantry in general as long as there is a solid backdrop. I am surprised only because of the number of complaints vocalized on a server whenever it happens.

                  I guess that for HATs, vehicles only are allowed. But he doesnt mention any 1v1 intances where it's "you or him" and you're stuck holding the HAT. Ive read through the first couple of pages of discussion after his post and it still seems kind of gray.

                  ive never grabbed an AT kit with the intention of running around shooting infrantry with it. I would kick someone from my squad for doing that in a second. I think that sucks. But to take out a sniper / someone shooting at you trying to kill you, I dont see the problem. It really is a case by case

                  But thanks Bolonov, that was an interesting thread to read through.
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                    We had an interesting HAT situation a few days ago on Sunset City:
                    Our USA squad had taken a tall rooftop overlooking the main bridge, and brought an HAT with us. We got ambushed by an enemy squad on an adjacent lower rooftop and were getting decimated by small arms and grenades, when only myself(SL) and HAT were alive, I ordered the HAT to obliterate the enemy position...which was very effective and 5 enemies went flying into the air. He saved the SL, and we were able to keep the strong point and hold back enemy armor.

                    I think there are situations where life-or-death consequences out-weight the normal "rule" to not use HAT against infantry...the long range HAT "snipes" are the ones that need to be reported.
                    |TG-X|WAREHOUSE

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                    • #11
                      Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                      Originally posted by w.WAREHOUSE View Post
                      I think there are situations where life-or-death consequences out-weight the normal "rule" to not use HAT against infantry...the long range HAT "snipes" are the ones that need to be reported.
                      I disagree. It just happened that the blatant rule violation in that particular instance was of extreme benefit to your squad. There's no justification for it. Your squad got outmaneuvered and outgunned and you took the easy way out regardless of TG's own rules on the matter.

                      I very rarely see any confusion on the server regarding the use of HAT. It's LAT which IMO gets abused more often than not. Even last night (Mon) during Ghost Town I sent a text message asking that AT not be used against infantry. I got a quick response back basically saying "it was LAT so it was ok". This was after some lamer was on top of a hill and shot it close range into the ground killing a couple of my fellow squad members. IMO the use of AT is as much a game play issue as anything to do with realism. It just seems like a cheap kill to me. Not quite as bad as those bastard claymores in POE but close. ;)

                      Bernout

                      |TG-MD6|

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                        There is no straight dope, the game is imbalanced in some areas and the forums rules arent a perfect solution for that.

                        This has been discussed before lots, Im hoping something significant will happen in 0.7 to weapon accuracy to stop hat being used like a quake rocket gun.
                        The delay should apply everytime the zoom is used not just when its first deployed - bf2 engine issues affect this weapon more then anything else I think

                        If you try the m203 now you can see its not deadly accurate on the move any more, you have to pause before firing. Its much more balanced and I think its matured to a point where you dont have to have a forum rule about using it properly, etc

                        For some reason Ive convinced myself this might happen to all the weapons so Im hoping thats the case in future :)


                        Valid targets imo

                        HAT - Inside of fixed bunkers/buildings, any point on a destroyable building, wall or gate, vehicles, wrecks of vehicles, RP, crates, CO bunkers, firebases, sandbags, AA/tow guns

                        GL/m203 - Anything you like

                        LAT - Anything you like (focus on vehicles not infantary)

                        Grenades - Anything you like

                        Tow hummer - Same as HAT but also infantary if attacked

                        Aircraft/helicopter Hellfire, rockets, hydra & sidewinders - Anything you like

                        Mobile AA - Anything you like but aircraft should always be the primary concern

                        Handheld AA - ditto



                        If you think you might lose the HAT kit then dying inside of a vehicle will stop the enemy getting the kit. It cycles through the request system in 5 mins


                        If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                          Instead of pondering the rules, here is how I decide use of H-AT/L-AT in the game.

                          I think the use of HAT that bothers most people is when someone is continuously using it against infantry in situations that are in the grey area of the rules. If you use it once in such a situation, someone may complain, but it will never be a big deal.

                          So the best thing imo is moderation. If an opportunity presents itself, and you honestly feel the rules allow use of H-AT/L-AT, take the shot. If this keeps presenting itself, it is time to consider switching to an infantry kit.

                          People rarely switch back from the HAT to infantry kits, yet I order squad-members to do this often. You can no longer lose the HAT to the enemy, and a team-mate that needs it more can request it on, the other side of the map.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                            IMO the only rule that should be considered is with HAT...

                            as far as grenade launchers and light AT are concerned, use them on whatever targets you want. If you waste your LAT on an infantry, and then an APC roles up and your without a rocket, you just cost your squad their lives so it balances itself out.

                            with HAT: v0.7 is making many changes so that a TG specific rule about HAT will not be necesary.

                            some (not a complete list and its still all up for discussion nothing final) of the changes being considered:

                            - reducing HAT to 1 AT rocket.
                            - removing pistol & giving HAT a rifle with limited ammo so they have an alternative weapon and are not forced to use the rocket on infantry
                            - increasing time it takes to rearm a HAT rocket so its not as easy to spam.
                            - increasing the lethality of HAT against tanks and decreasing splash radius of HAT so 'sniping' infantry will be a whole lot less useful.

                            with the changes Im confident that for v0.7 TG will not need a specific rule regarding HAT, it should govern itself and 'HAT sniping' will not be the ultimate tactic for the player looking for maximum kill count.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The straight dope on HATs, LATs, and GLs

                              Originally posted by fuzzhead View Post
                              - reducing HAT to 1 AT rocket. - bad move
                              - removing pistol & giving HAT a rifle with limited ammo so they have an alternative weapon and are not forced to use the rocket on infantry - no! the pistol as sidearm was a great idea, the HAT guy should not be engaging infantry peroid. he has one job: destroying vehicles and bunkers.
                              - increasing time it takes to rearm a HAT rocket so its not as easy to spam. - what does rearm mean? if it is how long to bring up the scope like now then it is a bad idea. all that needed to be done is make the delay based on movement instead of equipping
                              - increasing the lethality of HAT against tanks and decreasing splash radius of HAT so 'sniping' infantry will be a whole lot less useful. - this was the only fix necessary, and also fixes the main problem with using them being overpowered against choppers
                              The only problems I have seen with the HAT is the splash damage and the current zoom penalty requiring the launcher to be in hands at all time. The correct fix to the current setup is less splash damage, reducing the effects against infantry, and making the delay to zoom happen when they bring the weapon up or move. This can be accomplished two ways:

                              When the right click is hit at any time there is a two second delay. This is plenty to require a good position to fire from. The delay is there no matter how long you had the weapon out so it is better to run with a pistol normally and save the HAT for when you need it.

                              Remove the delay that we have now and make the player unable to run with the HAT out.

                              With these delay changes the weapon would have to get into place before firing, and make the weapon much less run and gun without removing it's effectiveness against vehicles, which tend to move away rather quickly. If the player did not need to run around the whole map with the HAT out like they do now there would not be as many close range situations.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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