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A little fairness

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  • A little fairness

    Well, I'm sure the topic has been brought up before, but, I'd like to address it again. I will get flak for this. I have been a regular on the TG PR server for a few short months now. Some of you may know me. I am often Commanding a team.

    I believe someone brought this up only a few weeks ago, but, I started this thread to address an issue that I believe ruins a night of gaming for atleast half the server. This happened tonight, however, I'm posting this from observing the trend in question for quite a few nights over the time I have been here.

    Sometimes, a "winning" team gets extremely well established. This was what happened tonight. We had a winning team with 2 TG squads with superior co ordination absolutely dominating the other team. I became commander of the other team, and we did do our best.

    However, we were no match for a full TG squad that know each other, use TS and co ordinate. After we lost the previous round, the next map was Ghost Train. The map started with a lot of people teamswitching. The map started with the team balance in the tune of 25 VS 35. I should have taken a screenshot to prove this, however, I did not. You'll have to believe me at face value. Some of the others that were there can also vouch for this.

    The reason for the switching was because our team was losing. We tried our best on Seven Gates, yet we lost. The opposition was too good. I say that some of the blame lays with the fact that people were unsportsmanlike and teamswitched. I fully agree with that view. However, I am also of the view that some TG members (and some did, kudos to you) should have evened the gap. After all, there is only so much sportsmanship to be expected from pubbies.

    I don't blame you TG guys for wanting to play together, and I understand that you might have ended up on the same team by pure chance. This is a sticky problem. However, it is a problem. Getting Steamrolled is never fun. Even if our team genuinely deserved to lose because we were horrible (I'd say we were an average team. The SL's followed my orders, and used VOIP), some regulars should have joined our team at the beginning to narrow the 10 player gap. This crippled us for the first 10-15 minutes. That was enough.

    Another thing I've noticed is that the winning team has a higher player retention rate. With the losing team, players constantly leave, and new ones join. This disturbs the flow of the game. Thus, the winning team has the time to gel and make the same squads over and over again. I know this for a fact as I've been on such teams too.

    So, in conclusion, I do not blame you TG guys for wanting to play together, but, on the other hand, getting steamrolled by a bunch of guys that co-ordinate better.

    I am happy to say that this does not happen often. However, when it does, it ruins the fun of half the server.

    I have a proposal that I believe might go some way towards fixing the problem. A simple setting might do the trick. Instead of having the same "Teams" play different sides from map to map (IE: The MEC team of last map is the USMC team of the next), as it is currently set up, the process could be entirely randomised. This negates the advantage of a team getting extremely well acquainted to the point where they can completely steamroll another. I know I leave a game (but never teamswitch as some of you do. You know who you are.) if I am simply not having fun. Getting completely rolled is never fun.

    I know that my proposal has one huge disadvantage: The breaking-up of squads that were having fun together. However, I believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

    Edit: Case and point:
    Originally posted by Sir Nerd
    Man that was awesome and sad at the same time. We had a full TG-6th and TG-IRR on the same team and on almost every map we were on, we won by capturing all the objectives. One map (can't remember the name) we were MEC and we cornered the US into their main base and pummeled them with Anti tank shells, APC round, tank rounds, and machine gun fire. It was sad that it had to end.
    Wish more games were like this.
    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Catraphact; 10-27-2007, 11:49 PM.

  • #2
    Re: A little fairness

    I know it sometimes does get a little unfair. I usually leave if it get to the point of me getting head shotted the second i spawn. The server crashes usually help randomize the teams.

    My Resume includes Pirate, Mercenary, and a Devil Dog, what else do you want.

    Pain is Inevitable, Suffering is Optional.

    When you can't run anymore, you crawl and when you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.


    • #3
      Re: A little fairness

      Problem is that here at TG we want to group up with our IHS buddies on weekends and have fun but since we can not freely roam between teams we tend to migrate slowly to one particular team. Thus, creating a huge imbalance over time. Its not our fault that we like to play with people we know.


      1. Us TG guys need to take initiative to balance out the teams.
      2. Non-TG pubbers need need to suck it up and adapt. Form up squads, issue out roles to SMs, try to defend rather than attack.
      3. Learn TG squad day?


      • #4
        Re: A little fairness

        The purpose of the in-house squads is so they can play together, so having the server randomly mix teams every round would be unfair to them, not to mention on regular night when you want to play with the same squad you were in last round. I think the only real "solution" is that if you're on the other team, make your own squad and work together. I think we saw that in the few games after Kufrah and by two maps after that the teams were fighting pretty evenly. And that's with the 6th and Irregs still on the same side.

        I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.


        • #5
          Re: A little fairness

          In addition to the uneven teams, tonight there were a lot of small one and two-man squads, some locked, on the losing side. Players need to know that this only drops our chances even more. Players must be in full squads (excepting the *occasional* small insertion/specops/pilot squads) to maximize firepower and teamwork.
          "I am actually looking forward to watching Jon and Kate plus 8." - Dirtboy


          • #6
            Re: A little fairness

            If I had it my way, the IRR's would have been on the opposite side of us all night tonight. That would have made things much easier for everyone.

            I can't really say sorry, as IHS's kinda strive to play with one another, but yes, it sucks taking on the 6th and IRR. I used to have to do it myself, and there's only 1 answer: Step up as SL or Commander. The only excuse for not being a competent SL is that you have not spent enough time doing it, folks. The same goes for Commander! Squads not following orders? Get in TS, and report them. Squad members being dumb? Kick em. I'd rather have 2 great guys than 5 mediocre sniper whores.

            I wish server administration was much easier, but with BF2CC even the simple idea of moving players is hard. If we could only drag and drop entire squads at once, we could have easily balanced the teams tonight.

            I understand that there must have been alot of Anti-TG tonight for "stacking the teams" and I understand where people would be coming from with that opinion. No hard feelings, I'm sorry if some people had a bad time.

            To be honest, by Ejod the teams had gotten so damn even that I wasn't willing to sit out the stalemate.

            Don't underestimate a "non" tg team.
            Skud Rages at changes to Project Reality


            • #7
              Re: A little fairness

              Originally posted by Belhade View Post
              Players need to know...
              Yes...they "need to know." However, the problem with this is the fact that recently, there are a lot of new players to PR.

              When one team gets very well established, players tend to stick around. Most EST nights, the server is at capacity. The slots that open up are generally people disconnecting from the losing team. New players thus get thrust into the losing team. If a new player joins a winning team (sometimes), experienced squads will teach him the ropes quickly.

              However, if all the "vets" are on one team, the amount of newbies on the other is by definition larger. This accentuates the problem.

              Originally posted by xcannon69 View Post
              2. Non-TG pubbers need need to suck it up and adapt.
              I have turned things around myself against the TG squads sometimes as commander. It is satisfying. However, whenever I have done this, I atleast have 2-3 very good communicating squads with some non-TG regulars who happened to join by chance. It is rare.

              I did step up as commander. Squads were following my orders. However, these are "random" pubbie squads after all. I can say they gave it their best shot. One well intentioned guy, who was rallying his squad, did not even know how to set a Rally point down. I had to coach him. We cannot match the Vets on one team who know each other and the game mechanics well.

              When people got tired of "sucking it up" the team balance went to 25-35. This crippled any chances we had of winning the round as for the first 10-15 minutes, we were down by more than a squad.
              The purpose of the in-house squads is so they can play together, so having the server randomly mix teams every round would be unfair to them, not to mention on regular night when you want to play with the same squad you were in last round. I think the only real "solution" is that if you're on the other team, make your own squad and work together.
              I understand Nardini. I agree that the only way is for the losing team to "suck it up" because team randomisation would destroy the purpose of In-House squads, something I've noticed that TG holds quite dear. As I said, for an "anti-TG" team to win, you need a good commander, or atleast, a competent one (I mostly command, so I've commanded against TG often) and 2-3 decent (If not TG-esque) squads. Sometimes, it just does not happen, turning the night into a disaster for the losing team. I know my proposal will never happen, but, one can dream.

              I'm sorry if I sound like I'm whining. I'll stop now, and try harder I guess. Just wanted to bring the problem to the attention of everyone.


              • #8
                Re: A little fairness

                Catraphact, I know how you feel. I started a thread very similar to this a few weeks ago because it seemed like for 3-4 nights in a row that the teams were really unbalanced. Bad teams can get good b/c players come and go, get used to playing together, etc., so try to help pull your team together. But yes, I also noticed something that you mentioned, and that is that many of the TG players were switching to the winning team.

                I know it's fun to play with our TG buds, but well over 50% of the players on here are regulars. It wouldn't hurt to play in a squad with them. Or better yet, if there are 8 or more TG players on a server, why not try to split up and have a squad of 4 on each team? That way you'll help even things out, spar against each other and play for bragging rights! LOL


                • #9
                  Re: A little fairness

                  I agree with cataphract to a degree - but with the right attitude you can turn a retard-fest into a win. Just today, I grabbed a squad of new guys, outlined exactly how the mod works and that I need them to stick together and formed a backbone amidst a rabble of a team. (We were facing a TG super team w/ regulars as described earlier)
                  We came out on top and pulled best squad, I was 42 and 16 with a rifle :p and everything... but I think my point is -
                  Just go in with open eyes and lead the best you can. Sometimes a reliable squad leader or commander is enough to turn the tide of battle.


                  • #10
                    Re: A little fairness

                    The reason the servers are the way they are is because PR supports teamwork, and being able to be in the same squad time after time is part of that. If we had to find a new squad every time it would likely make it harder for new comers to find a group of people that they actually like playing with.


                    • #11
                      Re: A little fairness

                      I do vouch for the fact that the teams were numerically unbalanced most of the time. However, that's about it.

                      I'm not a TG regular, but I had a PLA squad (all non-TG) on Seven Gates last night that absolutely dominated the opposition, simply for the fact that we were well-coordinated (yet we had never played together before). We stayed on the west side of the river hindering advancing APCs and commander assets near the River Fort, while the rest of the team dealt with the infantry advancing on Citadel.

                      But see, the problem wasn't the fact that there were more TG guys on our side. Rather, I noticed that the British consistently took the same paths and strategies, even after having been met with Light-ATs and mines from my squad every time. This is simply just poor thinking on behalf of your team, so there's not really an unfair advantage here. It's just part of the game. If you don't adapt to enemy threats, you'll repeatedly find yourself getting killed.

                      Kudos to AFsoccer in the following rounds though. Great commanding. I'll be playing on TG more often.


                      • #12
                        Re: A little fairness

                        I just want to build on what Nardini said: Guys in the In House Squads here like to play together when it's possible, but above all else, we need to keep the game-play on the servers we love as fair and smooth as possible.

                        Like a lot of guys here have posted: the teams in question may not have actually been stacked in terms of experience or skill, and perhaps one team just wasn't cohesive or cooperative, and got whipped as a result. If the British team walked down the same firing lane 6 times in a row, that's certainly not the fault of any IHS, but: if even the perception of team-stacking exists, we are not getting it exactly right.

                        We can help eliminate these perceptions by spreading around the experience, of course, and new guys can (as was mentioned) step it up, and command, and learn to be effective squad leaders, and everything on down the line. "LearnTG" squads are highly effective tools. Running with Warehouse or Dirtboy will teach you a bookfull in one match. Run with them and then start your own pack. Squadlead, and pay attention to what the Goat is telling you, and figure out why he's telling you. Sign up for Fuzzhead's SL classes, though he sometimes sleeps through them... (did you think I would forget, Fuzz?)

                        I know I play a lot more PoE than I do PR, but we've been dealing pretty effectively with this in PoE for a while now. My honest opinion is that it's up to the IHS system participants to spread out and show other guys what is possible, and how to do it, and it's up to other guys to learn from it and do it better. Like, *ahem,* the last PR scrim, where the IHSers got hurt. Team-stacking, anyone? ;)
                        OPS, the bacon is on you.


                        • #13
                          Re: A little fairness

                          Originally posted by khaerus View Post
                          I just want to build on what Nardini said: Guys in the In House Squads here like to play together when it's possible, but above all else, we need to keep the game-play on the servers we love as fair and smooth as possible.
                          I would like to add on to Khaerus' post here, as TG'ers it is our job to make everyone on our server feel as welcome as possible. This is best achieved by setting up squads and helping other players see what TG is really about. I know the 6th does a very good job with this. We don't see an actual 6th squad that often, Dirtboy's TG Assault squad is open to all (if you're fast enough!) and the Irreg's squads are often open. I know I'm partially to blame last night; instead of switching sides I stayed with the 6th squad when I should have probably switched teams and started a squad to try and even things out a bit. I think as a whole we TG'ers need to realize when to even things up, whether we would like to or not, and spread the love :)

                          I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.


                          • #14
                            Re: A little fairness

                            I understand the frustration guys, I really do. I've been playing PR for a long time, back before the 6th existed, back when several of the other IHS were far more active in PR than other games they have since shifted focus to. There were times when I would jump on and literally be the only person sporting TG tags on one team facing another team that was manned by the 1st-MIP, Irregulars, 160th and non-IHS TGers. We'd get spanked to the tune of a 300+ ticket loss. Yeah, its frustrating, but its also a good chance for some self analysis.

                            It's not always a disadvantage to be outgunned. If you pay attention and look at your own gameplay, you can increase your skill exponentially. I'm a really good example of this. I didnt start off playing perma-medic in PR. Matter of fact, I played engineer and rifleman a lot. But when you're on a team that doesnt seem to know they need medics, you pick up the paddles and go to work. This gave me a love of the kit and a strong tactical knowledge of how to use it in a pinch. I get lots of people asking me how the hell I can run into a firefight, revive 2 people and still get out alive to heal them. The answer is simple: thats how I learned the kit. Being outgunned, outflanked, outsmarted, outnumbered, you have to learn how to survive tactically. You learn to read where fire is coming from without having to look for tracers, you learn to instantly analyze your surroundings to see where a flank is coming from and what cover can be used to counter. You learn to look for off-path routes to objectives that wont be watched as much as the main routes.

                            But yes, it gets demoralizing to lose round after round after round. Lots of the suggestions here have been good ones. Pick up an officer kit and lead a squad. You may not win, but you stand a chance of making a dent. As Skud said, last night on Oil Fields, the 6th had the fight of our lives trying to take a flag and we were about 5 seconds from being overrun. All of our armor, all the APCs and the entire rest of the team save our one squad was across the map at another flag. We were down to the squad leader being the only one alive at points, but we pressed on and took the flag. Had the squad that was attacking us not seemingly given up, they probably would have beaten us and the flag would have gone USMC instead.

                            Encourage those around you to play to the TG standard. If you've been playing here a long time, you know the drill. We dont do 1-3 man locked squads. Theyre useless. If you see that happening, alert one of the admins (we had several on last night, all on teamspeak, all in game) and the problem will be dealt with. If you have a commander who isnt doing his job and rambo-ing for his own amusement instead of helping the team with firebases and such, alert the admins to the problem. If you have squaddies who dont follow orders, give them the boot. If you think the game is terribly out of balance, dont wait until after the nighs gaming is over to say something, speak up. I encourage everyone to be in TS for this very reason! Many of us dont read IG-chat all the time because we're too focused on the game itself and voice comms.

                            Last night is a great example: We had 6th members on both teams, between the two, enough for a full squad. Nobody said "hey guys, the teams have been unbalanced for a few rounds, can we get some people switched so we can even it up some?" Instead, we get remarks like "25 vs 30? you guys suck." Well, we dont respond to that. It's immature and marked off as heckling because someone's a sore loser. But if someone had asked properly, chances are, I could have just said "Dirtboy, Skud, lets switch and even the teams up" and we would have.

                            Even since I've been in the 6th, weve had lots of rounds that I played and many that I didnt where we had a full 6th squad (or more) on one team and we still wound up losing because the rest of the team didnt know how to work together. You have to try and work out the kinks with those that will listen and let those that wont go on their merry way.

                            The bottom line here gents is that if there is a problem with the teams, find the reason for it and try and take care of it. If its simply a question of numbers, ask for people to balance it BEFORE the game starts. Communicate clearly and maturely and i'm sure you'll get a favorable response. If you cant solve the problem, use it as a learning tool. Figure out ways to outsmart the tougher team. Find new and inventive ways to create chokepoints. Broaden your skillset to include squad leading, commanding and the use of kits that arent your usual flavor.

                            But dont make it an anti-TG thing when this happens. TG promotes teamwork and camaraderie very strongly, and as such, people who have latched onto that doctrine and added the tags to their name look for others of similar mind to play with. We dont exclude anyone, theres no requirement to join, so the community is ever growing. But that also means theres a greater chance for stacked teams by numbers alone. I'd love to see the day when we have enough TG people constantly on the server that it merits begging the boss man for a second one because no "pubbies" can get in to play. But you have to approach the problems on the server as it exists now with those things in mind. Everyone always gravitates to their friends. With TG members, that tends to create a winning bias because we all know the rules, we all know whats expected of each other. We have learned the cardinal tenet of teamwork. So we stick together for better gameplay, not for wins. Thats the truth.


                            • #15
                              Re: A little fairness

                              Hmm, don't think I can match the quality (and length) of some of the posts on here, but I can add my two cents.

                              Yes, sure, what you guys say is correct in principle. Oh, they need to suck it up and work together. Yeah, guess what? After taking it from behind for several rounds, people get tired of 'sucking it up' and leave because they're tired of getting killed by the same people again and again, sometimes with TG tags. Then they look at the scoreboard and suprise! all the TGers are on the other team. Awesome. Just F-ing awesome. Then it is basically target practice for one side. I don't see how you guys can say "suck it up" when you are on a team with MULTIPLE TG squads. And it's immature to say "25 vs 30? You guys suck!"? Oh yeah, what do you want, a written petition to 'even the teams, taking into account that IHS members want to game together, so pretty please with a cherry on top?' Seriously, if you expect everyone to be nice and civilized after being molested for several rounds, you need a reality check.

                              Now obviously I'm not fully informed on everything and I'm approaching this with a measured amount of ignorance, but it doesn't take someone who has played a game since 0.1 to realize this stuff.

                              Case in point: Last night I was playing a little PoE. Yep, the same situation arose, where in this case I was the ONLY TG MEMBER ON MY TEAM. Guess who was on the other team? Yep, at least 3 TG-5th (khaerus and Ikonic for sure), 2 TG-12th (I remember Project for sure), maybe an Irr or two, and a couple non-tagged regulars. Stacked? You bet your sweet ass. Over the next couple rounds, we were thoroughly pummeled, with me leading a squad as best I could (which isn't that good, I need to take some classes in SLing), leading a more or less pub squad that retained a few guys for a couple maps. The rest rotated as people left (in disgust at the patent imbalance, I would guess). The first map was on Fallen. I looked at the scoreboard, decided we were screwed, and AT-whored to the tune of 40 kills and 20 deaths. Whoop dee doo, we got our asses kicked. Next round: similar. Round after that: a little better. On Crimea we came pretty close to winning as the US, with the highlight basically being me on the Mortar shooting at Village from Church, raking in the kills of the TG guys (YEAH, EAT IT YOU PUNKS! DOUBLE KILL! YEAH, KILLED YOU AGAIN IKONIC! Yep, that's about the level of TS maturity I displayed. Oh, and they were moaning about it). I know this sounds like an extended AAR, and sorry for that.

                              The point is, we finally won one (I think. Did we win?). Coincidentally, Mantis was on our team when we won, but more importantly, a lot of the TG guys on the other side had left, leaving just one or two TG guys on each side.

                              I guess what I'm saying is that appearances can be important, especially if one side is getting owned. If they see the other side is full of TG guys, they may draw the conclusion that we like stacking the teams and we're a bunch of jerks. So maybe the way they tell you the teams are stacked isn't to your liking, but pay attention, and switch even if you'd rather point-whore with your pals. That's all I'm saying.
                              playing off the TG server feels like we're playing 2142 on easy mode~Fehmart

                              I'm going to close my eyes until it's over~Experiment, commenting on my driving

                              "Get it up quickly and beat it hard."~Jonan
                              I don't get a bonus DVD? My life has lost all meaning.~Zoopy_T




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