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The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

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  • The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

    I would make this a poll but I can't seem to figure out how to make one. The link at the bottom of the page to make a poll according to the Forum FAQ is not there that I can see. So instead I'm going to ask for approval, disapproval or undecided posts on the three versions of the map.

    I ask that you READ the post before commenting

    First I'll say my piece and I ask TG members to try and stay on track with this post.

    I find that whenever I come to this map in the rotation I groan and pray that it will be over quickly. Or I find an excuse to take a break from the game and come back later once the map is done by checking the status link on this website. Once in a while I give it another try just to see if it's different with a good team or if I try a different tactic and I come to the same conclusion each time. The 64 player and 32 player map version of The Battle for Quiling are horrible.

    I am not the only person to think so looking at the player numbers when the map comes up. If the server does not see an instant drop in population, up to 20 leave sometimes, it is an amazing thing. More often than not by the end of the map the server hovers around 40 players or less. On a less successful server this map would likely kill the server dead. TG survives on it's reputation alone.

    My reason for disliking this map are pretty simple to see. The map design is very wide spread and not at all populated with intelligent capture points. Even with the explanation story of the map the capture points make no sense in their design. Village is not a location that is strategically important because I don't find fishing boats and wooden huts with rice bowls on a road to be important. I find the small power transformer NW of it to be perhaps slightly more important simply because it supplies power to the area. The hill above the village to the West is a much more strategic geographical area as it not only overlooks the Village but also the Lake. Then you have the Coal Mine, which may be a resource center but is incredibly open and not a good defensive position. Once again the hill to it's East is a much more important location to overlook the Coal Mine and the Lake. Even the bridge north of the Village and the hill overlooking that bridge and stream is a much more strategic position. I comment on all the good positions on the map militarily in my PR Forum Post I link below.

    Coupled with the large expanse of the map which has no good reason to be this big all you get is a bunch of spread out squads and vehicles with no direct transport. How often do squads go to the NW corner or the SE corners of the map with the exception of flanking maneuvers at the very beginning of the game?

    I have asked the PR Dev to redesign the map and have offered restructured 64 and 32 player maps adding 4 additional CPs (2 British / 2 Chinese) for the 64 player map and 2 additional (1 Brit / 1 Chinese) CPs for the 32 player map. (PR Forum Link) This kind of wasted map space does not only exist in the 64 player map but also the 32 player map. Although the 32 player maps is much better only because it's smaller. However it is by no means an easy or even average jog from any capture point to any other capture point. Not that it should be easy but it should be within some reason and currently it's not.

    My strong recommendation to the TG Admins is this; Make The Battle for Quiling map on the TG PR Server rotation a 16 player map only.

    Unlike Kashan which can be played at any size, Quiling is not the case. The 16 player map is the only option. It would make it a very quick, very heated battle based around infantry squads moving across grasslands, through the hills, using the lake and urban warfare in the village. Smoke grenades and large arcs of fire support would be key. We had a lot of fun on Kashan 16 player map today. I would like to see a similar fun and heated map break between some of these longer maps.

    So I ask to remove The Battle for Quiling 32 player from the rotation and instead replace it with The Battle for Quiling 16 player map. I ask to at least give it a try for a week or so and see how it does.

    So comments? Arguments? Support or nonsupport?

    Cheers.
    .
    "Young gamers assault while Older gamers flank."
    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

  • #2
    Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

    Kilroy, I have seen from your posts that you love 16 player maps.....

    as a start up map, and as a in between map they are great, but continous play with 64 players on 16 player maps, is just a nade spam-fest and a massacre.

    You have the right to recommend to the TG admin community that the map be changed, but i can't see it being changed as a 16 player map forever.

    QinLing is a Strategic commanding dream...lush grass, excellent cover for hidden AA guns, hills and open area's for Tank battles, places for SL's and spec ops to lay to laser targets, its too good to be true.....

    Watch dirtboy's scrim video, and read AFsoccer's commanding strat plan, you might have a change of heart.
    Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
    Level II Volunteer FireFighter
    Level I HazMat Technician
    NYS EMT-B
    Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

    sigpic




    Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
    RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
    Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
    Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
    We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

      As Shugart mentions above, QinLing is one of those maps where a team needs to have an effective CO, good SLs, and a team focused on working together to make it successful and enjoyable. For the scrim we played on this map, it was the most fun I've had in a long time, and the reason was because of our excellent CO and everyone pulling together. This map demands that type of play from a team.

      I think the frustration that Kilroy feels, as well as many other players, is that on a general pub night, putting all of these elements together is challenging at best. One of two things are bound to happen on this map 75% of the time:

      1) Teams that lack leadership and focus are going to get steamrolled if the opposing team has even the slightest bit of organization, making for a less than pleasurable experience for the losing team.
      2) Neither team has leadership or organization, making for a long, drawn-out yawn-fest as both teams struggle to accomplish anything.

      Either way, it's no fun for at least half of the players on the server.

      The solution is this: someone needs to step up and take charge. Commanding on this map is extremely taxing. I've done it 3 times, and each time I've been wiped out from spending 2 hours coordinating the team, trying to utilize air assets, and having everyone scream at you over VOIP that they need support NOW! It's not for the feint of heart, and I almost think any CO who can stick with it the whole round and lead his team to victory deserves a ribbon, or at least a T-shirt ("I was CO on QinLing and all I got was...").

      Remember, the TG server is about teamwork and maturity. Maps like QinLing are geared exactly for these types of players. If we want fast, shoot-em up maps without much thought to tactics then we should all play CSS or COD4 (I know I'll get flamed for that - no offense). We already have one urban combat map in the rotation - EJOD 16. That's enough. The PR DEVS have a ton of new urban, CQB style maps on the near horizon for us, and we'll get more than our share of those types of tactics on those. Then we'll all be craving the epic maps like QinLing to balance those out.

      "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

        Answer to Delta*RandyShugart*'s post:
        Granted the 64 player map version of this has aircraft and helicopters which does add a very appealing part of the game. While having the same number of contested flags as the 32 player map. But obviously they decided to get rid of the 64 player map version and settled for the 32 player map version for a reason. What was that reason? Was it the same reason I am asking for a 16 player map version of this map?

        Granted there are a lot of fun 16 player maps out there. I have mentioned only two others in previous posts. One was the EJOD 16 player which I said was a good thing because it was at the beginning of the map rotation so when the server restarted it had time to populate. This is a very good reason to have a 16 player map. The second reference was the Kashan 16 player map which came after 3 or 4 longer played maps. Also an excellent map as it broke up the long maps and gave the players a very heated and energetic battle.

        Do I like 16 player maps? Yes but only a few. Not all maps should be 16 player obviously. PR has a whole gambit of excellent 64 player maps that I would never want to remove from the rotation. Quiling just isn't one of them. I'll attempt to find the guide you speak of and look at it and see if it helps. But for now, from my current outlook on it... the magic just isn't there for Quiling. If there was a way to look at player counts for specific maps I would interested to see what happens to the population of the server when Quilings comes up. Over a longer period of time.

        Edit add: d1sp0sabl3H3r0 posted before I posted this one and so this is a follow up after reading his post.

        Answer to d1sp0sabl3H3r0's post:
        I really do wish I could experience Quiling in a private scrim sort of atmosphere. I am by no means the best player out there but I do pride myself on excellent teamwork when given a chance. Indeed the frustration I feel is the absolute lack of any sort of consistent defense or offense on the map. Either half the team is dicking around in the woods some place or at main base while the other half is spread out between Village and Coal Mine. Neither one stays to defend and so you never get to the next CP before one of them falls again. I have been CO for this map only once and it ranks up there as one of my worst matches for the very reason disposablehero states, complete lack of teamwork. Regardless of what I tried to do to help the team the team did not respond. This more than aggravates me.

        So yes I dislike the map and I thought I would attempt to express my feelings on the matter in a constructive way and appeal to the people in charge. Obviously I can't force anyone to change the rotation but I keep hoping. :)

        Thanks for the constructive discussion on the map.
        .
        "Young gamers assault while Older gamers flank."
        "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

          The village and coal mine are important not for the resources or the fishing boats, but for the roads....

          Mechanized armies, hell, all armies throughout all of history have always fought over road networks. Road networks make for fast transport of supplies and reinforcements for your army if you control them, and spell disaster for your forces if you do not control them. The village and coal mine are meaningless with but 1 exception.... All the roads lead through those 2 places, which means they are worth fighting over.

          I actually loathe the 32 player version but I am guessing it is played here to make it easier on the admins. (Less air assets, less chance of smacktards) Onto the the 16 player version of this or any map, in my personal opinion, the battlefield engine overall is crappy for just infantry. Why you would want to play a game engine made for vehicular combat and limit it to pure infantry (which I think we can all agree there are at least 3 game engines which do pure infantry combat better then battlefield) is beyond me but each to their own I suppose.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

            The BF2 engine is the best engine out there for what PR needs. There are "better" engines out there for infantry combat, but do they support 64 players? Do they support 4 kilometer-long maps? Do they support tanks, helo's, and jets effectively as well as infantry? Squad system with Commander? No, they don't.

            I threw 16 player Ejod and Kashan for a few reasons. One was that after a server crash a small 16 player map is the best for getting things rolling again. Nothing was worse than to have a 10 v 10 match on a 64 version match where one team dominates at the beginning, and when it finally fills up it becomes a slaughter-fest for an hour. Another reason is that people wanted more maps, so I put on 16 Kashan because it may be a welcome break from the 2+ hours long maps. If it doesn't work out the admins will remove it, but we're going to try it out for the time being.

            I'll put Quinling 16 on for password night tonight and we'll see how it plays out. If it's a decent map perhaps we can throw it in the rotation.

            Also realize that they are reworking the map structure for most maps. You are now going to see one central flag with a large cap radius in most cities. This is to allow more strategy. Now you aren't forced to defend Temple, offices, et cetera on Sunset, but you can actually decide where to set up your fire-bases and bunkers.

            I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

              The BF2 engine has revolutionized On-Line multiplaying and has brought it to a whole new level.

              It really is a site to see when being bombarded by tanks and rpg fire on coal mine and then hearing a jet fly over head hitting that armor column that you or someone else in the vicinity has laser designated, its a sight to see and to reckon with.

              Kilroy I can vouch for disposable I have been in a squad or the SL twice while he has commanded, he does an excellent job, the next time you are on the server and this map is in play I recommend squadding up with him, he knows the map inside and out and will give you a new perspective to what it feels like to be a grunt in the rolling grass of QinLing.



              I can only imagine what the next QinLing map will be like, there have been many times where i have been in the prone position in the grass or near a tree and hear an enemy vehicle or tank roll up just meters next to me, it brings the graphics and environment settings to a whole new level.
              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
              Level II Volunteer FireFighter
              Level I HazMat Technician
              NYS EMT-B
              Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

              sigpic




              Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
              RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
              Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
              Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
              We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                Originally posted by thegreatnardini View Post
                The BF2 engine is the best engine out there for what PR needs.
                Sigh, here we go again with another "my opinion is right, and yours is wrong" post. This is a mature community, are we not allowed to have different opinions without one being "right" or "wrong" when the opinions aren't about the rules or the primer or anything of that nature? I say In my opinion the engine is bad for pure infantry combat since the engine was made for a game that emphasized vehicular and combined arms fighting, but you broaden the scope of my comment as if I am saying the bf2 engine sucks for everypossiblemap..
                There are "better" engines out there for infantry combat, but do they support 64 players?
                Never played on a 64 player DoD/CS server, ehh?
                Do they support 4 kilometer-long maps?
                How many of the 16 player maps are 4 kilometers long?

                The original poster is just as entitled to his opinion as you are, can I be included there as well?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                  I don't think Nardini was trying to incite a riot.....that was his own opinion, different opinions as long as they are not hostile towards someone is what makes this community great.

                  16 player maps i think are most likely not 4km long due to the fact that one cannot walk in the out of bounds area, or the maps are shrunk down for the 16 player purpose.

                  but that is just my own opinion, and in no way am i trying to be sarcastic towards you morgan.
                  Last edited by Delta*RandyShugart*; 02-07-2008, 02:26 PM.
                  Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                  Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                  Level I HazMat Technician
                  NYS EMT-B
                  Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                  sigpic




                  Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                  RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                  Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                  Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                  We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                    Originally posted by Morganan View Post
                    Sigh, here we go again with another "my opinion is right, and yours is wrong" post. This is a mature community, are we not allowed to have different opinions without one being "right" or "wrong" when the opinions aren't about the rules or the primer or anything of that nature? I say In my opinion the engine is bad for pure infantry combat since the engine was made for a game that emphasized vehicular and combined arms fighting, but you broaden the scope of my comment as if I am saying the bf2 engine sucks for everypossiblemap.. Never played on a 64 player DoD/CS server, ehh? How many of the 16 player maps are 4 kilometers long?

                    The original poster is just as entitled to his opinion as you are, can I be included there as well?
                    Reading his response, I don't see how you think what Nardini said was a "I'm right, you're not" response. He made a statement and backed it up with facts. He wasn't flaming you or anyone else.

                    The BF2 engine is the best engine out there for what PR needs.
                    Supporting argument:
                    There are "better" engines out there for infantry combat, but do they support 64 players? Do they support 4 kilometer-long maps? Do they support tanks, helo's, and jets effectively as well as infantry? Squad system with Commander? No, they don't.
                    This was a statement about the BF engine being the best for PR (and it is - BF supports infantry, vehicles, etc. - everything needed to support the combined arms focus of PR). The remainder of the paragraph is just supporting the opinion he stated in the first sentence. Read it again.

                    Part of being a mature community is not reading more into someone's posts than what is really there, nor taking things so personally.

                    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                      Honestly guys, we go through this about every two weeks about one map or another. We used to get it about Kashan, I've heard it about Qwai River, and now Qinling. Really, they are just maps. If they were really that horrible, no one would play them and the Devs would not have included them. If it bothers you that much, take a break and come back. The server is popular enough that I doubt the 20 or so people you claim leave the server will not be replaced by the end of the map during peak hours. I for one love the huge epic size maps. They require strategy, which is apparently a concept that is hard for the BF2 community to understand. These maps are awesome when played well, or a tough fight uphill to survive when they go wrong. What could be more realistic? Either way they are good maps and all the complaining about this map or that map just wastes time. I don't mean this post to be antagonistic, but honestly, all this whining over maps gets on my nerves.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                        People have diffrent tastes.. I personally dont like huge desert maps with tons of Armor/Attack Helos/ and Jets.. but I occasionally find myself playing them. If there is a map I dont particulary like on.. I just wait a couple hours and join later.

                        If we tried to come to a concensus on what maps to play.. we wouldnt be playing any.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                          Originally posted by llPANCHOll View Post
                          People have diffrent tastes.. I personally dont like huge desert maps with tons of Armor/Attack Helos/ and Jets.. but I occasionally find myself playing them. If there is a map I dont particulary like on.. I just wait a couple hours and join later.

                          If we tried to come to a concensus on what maps to play.. we wouldnt be playing any.
                          My thoughts exactly. If you dont like the map, go play something else until it's over. The world does not end.

                          Hell, I'll wait all day to get to my favorite maps. I don't have a problem with it.
                          Skud


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                            I vote For the map being a useful and fun map.
                            Like Kashan, it is at it's core, a Combined Arms Assault Map. It is the battlefield experience as it was meant to be when played correctly. Fighters dueling it out high overhead for air superiority, once that is gained, the CAS rolls in to thunder over the enemy armor in concert with allied armor. After the allied armor and airpower is the only thing left standing, up come the APCs rumbling along to deposit troops to secure (with the help of the armor) vital choke points across the battlefield. Then you get to do it all over until your side utterly crushes the enemy or is utterly crushed, all defiance squelched, your fellow combatants are POWs or KIA.

                            While I do see the need to take some of the pressure off with those urban/jungle maps, they are not what the game was designed to be. I personally (opinion, dont kill me!) see the story behind, say, Ghost Train as ridiculous, I play though them, without crying or moaning, because I know that when I have suffered through enough infantry, I can take to the skies as a proud member of the Pirate Wing, and do what I am very good at. Delivering 2000 lb surprises, courtesy of the side I play on. (I am now taking pride at not derailing this thread on my utter hatred of Militia :p )

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Battle for Quiling - Map Poll

                              We played Quinling 16 on password night. It was horrendous. Neither side could cap the other's flags and you had to walk forever if you lost your rally. It basically turned into a stale-mate where each side sat on opposite hills and shot at each other.

                              I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

                              Comment

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