Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questions about the CAS system.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Questions about the CAS system.

    Hi PR players and devs,

    I need help on the CAS system.
    I haven't used this feature a lot, and ever so many players seem not to know how exactly it works.
    I'm writing out some questions I have, but it woud really be better if someone that can answer these questions made a nice updated guide in the forums.





    In no particular order:

    1) Does the tank hear a lock tone when I'm lasing?



    2) Does the laser even do anything?Only for choppers?

    The reason for this question is that I have tested a bit on a local server, and when I used only the CAS markers you can see on the map (yellow and red), the bombs would hit right on target. WhatI've heard is that the lasers give even more accuracy, but is this proven? AFAIK it is just a popular belief. Has anyone tested this difference? Tried without the laser? Perhaps the bombs arrive on target, but don't explode without a laser?



    3) Can the jets drop two kinds of bombs?

    In the original cas video, they describe two kinds of bombs (laser guided and gps) one bomb is used with the red CAS marker on the map, the other with the yellow cas markers. One of the bombs (laser I believe) takes out 1 tank, the other kind takes out 6 vehicles with a huge damage radius. No one seems to be aware of this in-game, yet the video says it no?



    4) Are the communications described in the video bs, as I think they are?

    What exactly in the game mechanics triggers a correct cas attack? The video tells you stuff like the jet has to confirm cas orders with the commo rose. I think this is not necessary at all, and this makes the video so confusing. It is not a tutorial, more a showing off of the new feature.
    AFAIK the only thing you need for an airstrike to hit the target is for the SL or CO to mark them on the map, so the jet can fly over, get a lock on and destroy the target. That means no binocular needed, no spec ops lone-wolfing needed, no lasing needed.



    5) What is the deal with the choppers? It is not in the video. Do they even need spotters? can they even use the lasers?




    Well I may add more questions later, it clear enough that I don't get the game mechanics at all, and I probably won't untill a R-DEV explains the core-game mechanics related to this feature.

    If you can answer some of these questions, for my, and the community's benefit, please add how sure you are of the answer; whether you have tested different possibilities, or whether you are just going by what works? People are horrible at finding cause and effect when confronted with varying rates of succes, and often come up with wildly incorrect beliefs. That is what is happening on the server today. Everyone does it differently.
    This is perhaps the first thing in battlefield where I could really enjoy a tg-university style lesson. One reason is that you need a good number of people to even try testing this on a local server. You need a pilot, a commander, a spotter, at least one eney etc.

    Thanks for any anwers or initiatives that may come from this.

    Hoping to bomb you soon,

    Al.

  • #2
    Re: Questions about the CAS system.

    1. I don't know about that one.
    2 and 3- The Jets normally carry 2 "bombs" that either work as laser guided or GPS guided. If the CO placed a red marker, that is a GPS bombing point and the bombs will fall tracking to that point. If the commander placed a yellow marker, it is ONLY a reference point for the pilot to use to time the drop. With the yellow marker, a laser tag on the target is required. Laser is also necessary for the A2G missles on the A-10/SU-25 to work. In a helo, the laser is best used for lasing a mobile AA piece. Without a buddy laze, the helicopter really doesn't stand a chance since it can't even get close enough to fire an accurate shot on PR (lame.)
    4. The communications have no effect on the CAS sequence. Although, they can be helpful. I like to use the Comm rose because the guy on the ground can send a "marking target" report to let me know my timer has started before the laser tag goes away.

    Hope this helps!
    Murderous

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Questions about the CAS system.

      So with the Laser Guided Bombs, you would hear "I got lock", and with the GPS guided ones, it would be a green box?

      Also, when is the best time to release those bombs, when you hear the confirmation or see the green box?

      The video says that you should be between 400-500 meters in the air, but some people say you must be above 500 or the bombs won't arm. Which is it, and can I drop bombs from say 800 meters in the air?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Questions about the CAS system.

        That is a lot of help already thank you murderous.

        It is good to know that the commander can deploy a much stronger gps bomb with the red marker. Most co's don't know this I think.

        Now with the yellow marker, I have tested that if a pilot flies over a yellow marker, he will also get a lock tone, and a bomb will guide to the destination without a laser. Perhaps we made an error in testing and the laser was used after all. But assuming you are correct, I have a follow up question, a problem that occurs constantly in-game.

        6) What happens when a target is lased multiple times?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Questions about the CAS system.

          When I'm marking targets as a SL...this is what I do and it works everytime I have a pilot who knows what he's doing.


          1.) I request CAS from the commander.

          2.) When he accepts it, I laser the target.

          3.) As soon as I see that the laser has locked on, I send the message over comms "Sending laser target now"

          4.) Once that is done, I hit the team chat button and send a message saying "Enemy tank (or AA in some cases) painted in grid ** keypad *. Refer to CAS marker. "





          Easy as pie.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Questions about the CAS system.

            Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post
            That is a lot of help already thank you murderous.

            It is good to know that the commander can deploy a much stronger gps bomb with the red marker. Most co's don't know this I think.

            Now with the yellow marker, I have tested that if a pilot flies over a yellow marker, he will also get a lock tone, and a bomb will guide to the destination without a laser. Perhaps we made an error in testing and the laser was used after all. But assuming you are correct, I have a follow up question, a problem that occurs constantly in-game.

            6) What happens when a target is lased multiple times?
            the red marker is only if no one can laser the target so its a estimate laser target, it isnt the most accurate but sometimes it will hit...it ur lucky


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Questions about the CAS system.

              Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post
              6) What happens when a target is lazed multiple times?
              It really messes with the lock, kind of like trying to lock onto aircraft after they deployed flairs. I know RatBastard was trying to take out lazed targets on Kashan the other day but he couldn't because other people were lazing the target as well

              You can see both friendly and enemy lazes, so if you know a friendly target has been lazed throw a few more down to mess the enemy up!

              I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                1) Does the tank hear a lock tone when I'm lasing?



                No.



                2) Does the laser even do anything? Only for choppers?



                When you lase a tank the systems that can engage are the laser-targeted Hellfire missiles on the Apache (Press 4 as gunner to bring up), Air to ground missiles from the A-10/Su-25, Jets with bombs (they must fly between 500-600 high for a hit).



                3) Can the jets drop two kinds of bombs?



                Neg, when a spec ops or SL lazes using the SOFLAM he has the option "need support" or something similiar. This goes through to the commander and the commander can either accept or deny this. If accepted it shows the symbol on the map which is a guideline for pilots. This isn'y necesarily exactly where the laze is and does not create a laser, it is merely to let the pilot know the location on his map.



                As others have sed, the red marker is CO placeable and creates a laser.



                4) Are the communications described in the video bs, as I think they are?



                They do nothing technically but these little comm's in the commorose actually help the pilots and ground forces out alot. "Need Air suppot" and "Lazing target now" let the pilot know that something has been lazed and the location. "Affirmative, on the way" let's the ground forces know they are inbound and not just ignoring. Without the comms it's a waste of time. Too many SL's just laze and make no mark whatsoever, then the jets have to guess and run a risk of over-exposing themselves.



                5) What is the deal with the choppers? It is not in the video. Do they even need spotters? can they even use the lasers?



                I have more experience in the choppers that the jets really. Yes, the video is really poor. Only after about 5 times in did I finally understand how everything works for them.

                Attack helos gunners have access to 4 different cockpit "positions".

                1. gives the pilot a free look around, sometimes useful for spotting considering seeing everything in the terrible fake FLIR is really annoying and hard to spot on Qinling especially.

                2. 25-30mm chain gun depending on which faction. Can zoom.

                3. Laser-guided Hellfires. These are controlled completely by the pilot. Helicoopter usually has to hover pretty still or maintain a constant altitude while moving to get a hit.

                4. Laser-targeted Hellfires. These are the ones you are refering to I believe. These work only with laze's. These are fire-and-forget. They can lock on from around 800 and takes a second or two to get a good lock.

                HOWEVER, attack helicopters can also laze things for themselves. By rightclicking while in positions 2, 3 or 4 they can shoot their own lazer out. Personally, I don't even bother with this because I'm usually so high I can afford to hover for a bit.



                6.



                The laze takes a while to travel to the target and ideally should be left on target for the maximum amount of time allowing the pilot to find and take it out as quickly as pos. Too many times have I been lining up for an attack run, spot the laze then someone who has no clue decides to re-laze it while I am right next to the damn thing meaning i see the lazer travel through the air
                (slowly) to the target and hence can't get a shot off.
                Before the effect one believes in different causes than one does after the effect.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                  Having been both a CAS pilot and spotter, I honestly think that this system is not explained very well in the official video. It's a common question on the PR forums, as well as in-game. I'll help answer these.

                  1) Does the tank hear a lock tone when I'm lasing?
                  No, it does not.

                  2) Does the laser even do anything? Only for choppers?
                  When an Officer/Spec Ops lases a target, Attack Jets and Helo GUNNERS are the only ones who will see the green box appear on the target.

                  3) Can the jets drop two kinds of bombs?
                  There are two kinds of precision guided munitions that the fix-winged attack aircraft can deploy.

                  The first one is the Laser Guided Missile. It has an area affect of about two tanks sitting next to each other, and can lock onto laser targets.

                  The second one is the Laser Guided Bomb. It has a larger area affect than the missile, and can also lock onto laser targets. Please note that you have to be 500 altitude above the ground for the bombs to explode, otherwise you'd just be dropping a 500 lb. weight.

                  4) Are the communications described in the video bs, as I think they are?
                  The communications described in the video (i.e using the comm-rose to signal that I'm on my way) is suggested actions only. If you're using VoIP to communication instead, then the comm-rose would be a waste of time. The communications in the video have nothing to do with the actual actions of attacking the target.

                  5) What is the deal with the choppers? It is not in the video. Do they even need spotters?
                  Attack Helos have one kind of guided munition, the Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM). This missile is controlled by the GUNNER of the helo. However, this missile has two types of firing modes.

                  One firing mode is "Laser Guided", which means that after firing the missile, moving your cursor on the screen will guide the missile to whatever target you point at.

                  The second firing mode is "Laser Targetted", which means that you will require a spotter. The spotter lasers a target, and the gunner will see a green box appear. The gunner will then place his cursor over the green box, and wait for a lock, then fire and forget. Please note that the PILOT of the helo CANNOT see the green box.

                  6) What happens when a target is lased multiple times?
                  Ah, yes. I've had personal experience with this. When a target is laserer multiple times, that is, at THE SAME TIME, there are TWO lasers on the target, missiles fired from CAS Jets will shoot towards the target, but not hit it exactly. This is because it is confused by which laser to track. I've tried this personally, and my suggestion is that you only have one laser on one target at a time for best results.

                  I'll add a section of my own to clarify commanders issuing CAS Markers
                  As a commander, you are able to deploy TWO kinds of markers on the map.

                  One is an ORANGE CAS Marker. This marker is not a laser target, and simply only functions as an attack order for CAS aircraft.

                  The second one is a RED CAS MARKER. This marker IS an actual laser target, and can be placed by the commander by simply right-clicking on the map, and selecting. Since this Laser/Marker can be placed by the commander ANYWHERE on the map, even while the commander is 10km away, it's best used for stationary targets.

                  Squad Leaders can REQUEST for these two types of markers from the commander. When a request is made, the commander can either reject it or accept it, placing the marker on the map.

                  I hope this rather long post has cleared up things for you and others.

                  | |

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                    Thanks Marine. That is one of the more informational posts I've read in a while. That helps out alot.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                      Great info all.

                      BigGaay, if I have some time left this week, I wanna do some more testing if you 're ok with that.

                      Here 's the movie I recorded yesterday when you were using the 'laser targetted' missile from the Apache:

                      http://www.wegame.com/watch/Apache_l...rget_practice/

                      and here 's a small tutorial by Ferris on how to use the SOFLAM:

                      click

                      We tried using the 'laser guided missiles' from the A10 but even with a green box on the ground they went off target. Somebody please tell us if they are supposed to lock onto lased markers cause no matter what we tried, they wouldn't.

                      I 'm up for making a detailed tutorial on how to use CAS step by step... just need the time to do it.
                      Last edited by Ghost Dog; 02-25-2008, 04:13 AM.
                      Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                        Ok guys, you've doubtless seen my video tutorial on lasing by now, I'll answer all the questions originally asked, plus some input from my own experience.
                        1) Does the tank hear a lock tone when I'm lasing?
                        No, vehicles do not hear the lock tone when being lased. They will, however, hear the lock tone at the same time the plane hears the lock tone to drop the bomb. After the bomb is dropped, the vehicle will continue to hear the lock tone until the ordinance explodes or misses. So either they'll die in a fiery explosion, or nothing will happen.

                        2) Does the laser even do anything? Only for choppers?
                        The laser marks targets for Laser Designated Missiles (4th weapon on the attack choppers) and Laser Designated Bombs on planes (J-10, EF, Frogfoot, Warthog). On the Planes, the lock tone is indicated BRIEFLY as the plane passes over the drop area. For the attack choppers, the laser designation must remain in the gunner's crosshairs and indicate LOCKED from the time the missile is fired until impact in order to destroy the target. On the attack choppers, if the target does not remain locked after the missile is fired, the missile wont hit the target.

                        3) Can the jets drop two kinds of bombs?
                        The jets have two kinds of ordinance, bombs and missiles. The AGM missiles can be fired at ground targets, but require the same locking system as the attack choppers. The 500lb bombs require an altitude of 500+m to be dropped and arm before detonation. The 500lb bomb does not have to hit exactly on target to deal great amounts of damage. I have seen tanks destroyed 20m+ away from a bomb by the explosion.

                        4) Are the communications described in the video bs, as I think they are?
                        I'm not exactly sure which video you're referring to, but absolutely no communications are necessary. The CO does not have to issue a CAS marker or attack order. Ground troops do not have to radio that a target is being lased. The planes do not have to signal inbound. These things are just courtesy for the other players in the area. If you can manage to do it accurately, you could lase and drop a bomb in dead silence.

                        5) What is the deal with the choppers? It is not in the video. Do they even need spotters?
                        Attack helicopters need spotters just as the planes do. The two firing modes are unique in function though. The Laser GUIDED Missiles are controlled by the gunner just as a TOW or HAT missile is, using the mouse to steer the ordinance after it has been fired. It does not need a lased target. The Laser DESIGNATED Missiles require a lased target and a solid target lock to be effective. See the notes on this above. The LDM system is not fire-and-forget. If you break the lock after firing, your target will not be hit.

                        6) What happens when a target is lased multiple times?
                        When a target is lased multiple times, it has the same effect as a plane dropping flares, creating multiple signatures that the radar lock must decide on, often leading to missed ordinance drops. It is recommended that you only have one spotter in the area and that all other players with SOFLAMs in a target area know who is spotting so they dont light up the same target multiple times.

                        To sum it all up, heres the skinny:
                        -Get on teamspeak and be in the appropriate team coordination channel if you are going to be a spotter, pilot or squad leader. Not only does this facilitate communication between squads (thus making the CO's job easier), but is also allows for much faster and clearer communication between spotters and pilots.

                        -Know your systems before you use them. If you're going to fly CAS, you need to be intimately familiar with how the weapons systems work. I recommend creating a local server with the training mode on and flying around dropping bombs until you have your drop altitudes cold. On the same map, grab a specops kit and practice lasing targets. This might seem trivial, but theres a lot on lasing that the average person doesnt realize. Continued next...

                        -Understand how the laser works. The laser indicator on the SOFLAM travels, just like a bullet or missile, taking time to reach and lock on to a target. If your target is 400m away, it is going to take significantly longer to reach and lock the target than it is to lock a target 50m away. Keep that in mind if you are trying to lase moving targets. You have to lead WAY in front of distant targets to lase them properly. Generally, when a target gets locked, the green square will "jump" a bit and lock on to a certain part of the vehicle. On tanks, the most common places I see are the rear of the tracks, front of the tracks, barrel of the main cannon and the top of the hatch on top of the tank. Also remember that you can lase ground targets like bunkers, AA guns, or even the ground itself if you want a bomb dropped on a bunch of troops.

                        -Lasers are not just for bombs! If you have an A-10 flying CAS for you and you need him to strafe some troops, LASE THEM. Often CAS planes will come in for a strafing run and completely miss their targets with the guns because the people guiding and spotting for them are unclear with instructions. If you lase the area you want strafed, it will show up in the pilot's HUD and he will know exactly where to point his crosshairs.

                        -Monitor the activity around you. If you call CAS in on a group of tanks, make sure there isnt an AAV around. If you see troops gathered around the tanks, ASSUME that one of them has the manpad AA. Warn the pilots about this before they come in and get angry with you for calling CAS into a hot zone. Conversely, for pilots, a great protective measure is to deploy flares AS YOU APPROACH any target area or dive in for a strafing run. This will keep any unwanted AA from locking you as you come in. Remember that you have TONS of flares and you shouldnt have to wait to be locked to deploy them. 90% of my AA kills come from shooting planes down that wait until after I lock them and fire to frop flares (the other 10% is from air vehicles that just dont deploy them at all). I have a really quick finger when it comes to AA, and if I pull the trigger before your flares break my lock, you're toast because AA missiles are fire and forget, going after whatever target was locked when they are fired.

                        -Remember that any target you lase can be seen by anyone on the battlefield who has a SOFLAM, be it friend or foe. So if you're going to lase a target, make sure you do it when CAS is INBOUND, or they'll probably notice and lase a different target (like a spot of bare ground) nearby to confuse your CAS's radar lock.

                        -Lastly, to address what headshot said about the helicopter gunner's options, the first position, which allows you to look around and has the crappy FLIR view, also allows the gunner to lase targets! This works the same way as the SOFLAM when done. So if you're a super sneaky helo team, you can actually lase targets for planes (on Qinling, for example).

                        If anyone else has any questions, please post them so we can get answers out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                          Thx for the write-up Ferris, I 'm starting to understand how everything works now.

                          Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                          The jets have two kinds of ordinance, bombs and missiles. The AGM missiles can be fired at ground targets, but require the same locking system as the attack choppers. The 500lb bombs require an altitude of 500+m to be dropped and arm before detonation. The 500lb bomb does not have to hit exactly on target to deal great amounts of damage. I have seen tanks destroyed 20m+ away from a bomb by the explosion.
                          AGM = Air to Ground Missile? If so, please tell us what the Laser Guided Missile from the A10 is for and how to deploy it. I noticed it shoots 4 rockets if you pull the trigger once, but I 've never been able to hit anything with them... not even when the target is clearly lased.
                          Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                            AGM=Air to Ground Missile. That is the laser guided missile from the A-10. You have to fire it the same way the LDM in the attack helo is, keeping the laser locked and constant in the crosshairs until the target is hit.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Questions about the CAS system.

                              Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                              AGM=Air to Ground Missile. That is the laser guided missile from the A-10. You have to fire it the same way the LDM in the attack helo is, keeping the laser locked and constant in the crosshairs until the target is hit.
                              So what you 're saying is it does need a spotter on the ground and you have to keep the lock till you hit?

                              Thx
                              Last edited by Ghost Dog; 02-25-2008, 03:53 PM.
                              Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X