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  • "reasonable" commander orders.

    What would be considered reasonable commander orders vrs orders that are unreasonable?
    In the first sense we realize that the server rules state that reasonable orders which are given within the hierarchy that exists within the game are to be followed. So within that sense i question to what levels can we consider orders reasonable.

    From my experiance listening to commanders it seems that the level of control which commanders have over squad actions is low but functioning and useful. For any good commander we will see at least some orchestration of a game plan and squad use, directing squads to flags and getting fire-base built. A good commander at this current point is one who can get squads to attack when he asks them to and to defend when told. Any type of orchestration beyond this level of complexity starts to increase chance of insubordination due to it being difficult to claim the control over squad action which is necessary to direct more complex orders. Although i might say that in most cases there is always one squad which is willing to follow more complex orders, but having multiple squads like this which can work together i feel is an area of commanding which has not been utilized properly.

    I like to break it down into three categories: Purpose, Position, Timing.
    These are three properties of an active squad which a commander should be able to control, unfortunately it seems that the highest level of control that can be maintained while keeping reasonable is only within the purpose category.

    The Purpose of the squad is goal of a squad, what they are currently doing. As an example we can consider "attack this flag", or "mine this position"... perhaps, "build a fire base here". In any case, the purpose is the goal of a squad and is not defined by the commander but by what the squad is doing within it's own structure. We must realize that within the squads own structure and beyond the commanders scope there is a plethora of scenarios which the squad will have to deal with that the commander has no ability to interfere with. An example of this would be a squad which is engaged in the field while moving to a flag. I do not think i have ever seen a commander interfere in a situation like this, it is something that the squad leader handles with his mates. But never the less this example illustrates that there are further levels of complexity beyond simple "attack flag" or "defend flag".
    So i question the community, what is a reasonable level of control over the purpose of a squad which a commander should be able to exercise?

    The position of the squad is the physical location of the elements of the squad within the map space. This is a very important yet complex property of the squad. How a squad is positioned will determine how many aspects of engagement with a enemy squad will play out. This positioning is not just when the squad is still, but how it moves and where it moves to get where it is going. The commander does not usually have control over these properties of a squad, but there is a primitive level of control of position that exists. So what is a reasonable level of control over position which a commander should be able to have over a squad?

    The Timing of a squad is what i consider the most important property of the squad. It is also the one which has the least amount of commander control and is most poorly managed in most cases by squads. The timing is the actual time which a squad commits an action and for how long. For example, a squad holding at a position and then moving out 50 seconds later towards a flag... this is timing. Each action occurs at a specific time, so timing would be a "map" between actions and the time in which they occurred. In what i consider a more complex and reasonable level of control, i feel that the commander should have much more control over the timing of what squads do. Timing between elements is ignored outside of individual squads because it is too hard to manage timing out-side of your own squad, and squad leaders want to spend their time keeping their squad fit and not worrying too much about others. So in that sense i feel that commanders should be able to control more aspects of timing, this way the orchestration of multiple squads towards similar objectives can be more deadly, efficient and powerful... perhaps fun i might add... in my opinion.
    An example of this i like to think of is on mateista as the British commander, assaulting the east tower in the begging of the map. I always imagine having control over purpose position and timing of 3 squads and having them surround the east tower on the east west and south... Set a perimeter around the east tower first and have all three squads hold that perimeter until they are all in place. This allows a strong front to be developed. From that point one of the squads could move into the flag position while the other two held back and gave them covering fire and then once the first squad gets into flag the second could, while the third then moves to the north and protects the outside of the flag entrances.
    But the best i have been able to do is to get a few squads to attack the flag, not necessarily at the same time in force, but at least they all tried.. at differnt times.

    Either way, i am interested in peoples opinions of the "reasonableness" of orders.
    listen close
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    as the metal flies,
    we should know as fact:
    that unearthly demons
    are part of our pack,
    and as we engage you
    in battle we pass.

  • #2
    Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

    if the commander asks you to do something then do it, whether it be defend, build, go on the attack, conserve tickets, don't waste armor, etc.....

    I am just curious what you would think would be an unreasonable order?
    Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
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    • #3
      Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

      You bring an interesing question regarding timing.. it is an important tactical variable, and one that is employed at times in Teamspeak. This level of co-ordination I think best works SL to SL, and one must remember not to Micro Manage.

      Thanks for Keeping TG Tactical.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

        An example of an unreasonable order.

        Ordering a Squad to Defend or Attack a point when there are 5 other squads of equal skill closer to said point. Common sense says that the closest squads should move to respond not the furthest.

        Ordering a squad to take a point that is no where in the best interest of the team for example if on Qwai the Chinese are pushed back to Estate and Temple and the Commander orders a squad to assault Production or Mines.

        Two I can think of right now.
        .
        "Young gamers assault while Older gamers flank."
        "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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        • #5
          Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

          Turkish's opinion of a unreasonable order:

          "Go attack their main base with HAT, and take them out as they spawn! This will give us the advantage!"

          Make sense?
          |TG-X|Turkish

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          • #6
            Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

            unreasonable: i take this example from the other day...i was in the ONLY infantry squad on kashan 64 (all others-of 7 squads- being armor and air) we were ordered to take and defend south bunker....then south village...then south bunker....then south village...meanwhile the armor squads never moved into defend capped points, and most of the time the 3 air squads waited at main for air assets to re-spawn.

            i think it would have been reasonable for the CO to ask some of the armor and air units to take an infantry role and secure some flags. i dont know, maybe he did, and they didnt listen.

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            • #7
              Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

              Unreasonable orders are definitely those against game rules, TG server rules and basic of tactics which should be known for anyone who want to play commander.
              Unfortunately players often take role of commander without any knowledge about basic rules of PR either about tactics and those commanders could be ignored.

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              • #8
                Re: "reasonable" commander orders.

                Originally posted by Redd_Wiggler View Post
                unreasonable: i take this example from the other day...i was in the ONLY infantry squad on kashan 64 (all others-of 7 squads- being armor and air) we were ordered to take and defend south bunker....then south village...then south bunker....then south village...meanwhile the armor squads never moved into defend capped points, and most of the time the 3 air squads waited at main for air assets to re-spawn.

                i think it would have been reasonable for the CO to ask some of the armor and air units to take an infantry role and secure some flags. i dont know, maybe he did, and they didnt listen.
                Did the tanks were play the tune 'convoy' as they passed ya? :P

                And isn't what you say the point about locked squads and so forth - not if you are in a 'clan' or not? (whoops sorry to put it here but a good example methinks of what the 'real' issue is, not the one people 'think' it is. Where was the teamwork, community, thinking of others?).

                My personal favourate lately has been to get the whole squad in with the commander, into a truck, and then to drive into an enemy filled cap zone to go build a bunker. Us: one truck, one commander, one HAT on board sitting like a lemon with the rest of us - Them: squads, tanks and lots of room and time to get a few good shots on. Pity they didn't play like a cat with us before finishing us off. This was not the SL's fault, he was playing the line of 'follow orders or be punished in a TG not follow orders sense', so it can be an intense experience to be in that SL <reporting!> hotseat, and I felt sorry for him, and he said sorry to us for having to do it. Numerous times. (no worries man :) ).

                In general I think it's, when the commander is being to the detriment of the team. For example like constently not allowing SL's to operate and then take the 'moral high ground' in a TG sense (egos please plonk down here). Giving outragous orders like those mentioned above. Not being tactically aware of the whole situation and being caught up into something, and so making a critical error but not allowing the SL to take note and advise. Or the other way round, actually. SL's do that too, and I've done a few mistakes in my time so I can safely say, we all make mistakes. I guess live, learn, trust to trust again.

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                • #9
                  Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                  Turk's right, only breaking rules is unreasonable.

                  Don't forget you should have a mic too and you can give feedback to the commander. If his orders seem short on judgment you can suggest that a different route be taken with a short description why and let him decide. Don't tell him no or what to do, but let him know your feedback in a short response and maybe they will listen.

                  Most importantly, communicate.
                  |TG-6th|Snooggums

                  Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                    Here's an unreasonable order but its totally retarded: the map starts and the commander orders the entire team to defend the main base and not use any assets (Humvee's, APC's etc)
                    stupid i know but it could happen


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                    • #11
                      Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                      Unless the CO's ordering you to breach the TG Server Rules, you get to offer one suggestion in response to an apparently ill-considered order. If the CO still wants your Squad to do X at location Y, you've go 2 choices:-

                      1. Suck it up and follow orders.

                      2. Disconnect.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                        ^^^
                        I reserve the right to completely ignore a commander if they are doing things to maliciously and purposefully hinder the team. I've reported such commanders in the past and will continue to do so.
                        .
                        "Young gamers assault while Older gamers flank."
                        "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                          Unreasonable is.. erm.. unreasonable.

                          Go get 'em Kilroy :D

                          Getting 3 trucks destroyed, one squad out of action for an extended period while they go off and die alot getting extended spawn times, bemused/fed up/not having much fun/not helping out but the whim of the commander, destroy teams' assets, destroy weapon assets (oh I just got the HAT and sniper rifle before everyone else did!), make crazy decisions that gives nothing but a bad time for all (apart from the other teams' fun and advantage), is misjudgement (I am not on about what Kilroy says about blatant abusers but people that make bad decisions) is unreasonable and erm.. against a rule?

                          The rules in some countries say that it is unreasonable to go up against the state and even look at this forum. Political prisoner time for you matey. Now there's a rule.

                          Let's have another one then from TG - use humilty, patience and insight!

                          - Surely the TG Codex 'is the' Rule - not 'The Rules'.

                          Otherwise: Hoisted - On - Your - Own - Petard.

                          Bring on the sanity please!
                          Last edited by Taip3n; 04-09-2008, 09:16 AM. Reason: edited out the algerbiac equation for Everything

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                          • #14
                            Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                            Have a dedicated sniper/recon squad with 3 men who are on a overwatch position attack a flag that means CQB - wait, what?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: &quot;reasonable&quot; commander orders.

                              Yea I hear ya....

                              As commander I ***attempt*** to orchestrate more complex manuevers all the time...

                              The biggest problem I have, is that one squad inevitably arrives close to the objective first. It is NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to explain to that squad that I dont want them to attack yet, I want them to hold up and hide, wait in their position for the other squad to get into his position. So one squad attacks from the norht, the other squad in the south as an example. This can be very deadly and I do this all the time as an SL, but I basically do it without the other squad being aware of what Im doing ;)

                              Ive actually yet to pull this off successfully being a commander. Someone in one of the squads inevitably gives their position away and initiates the firefight too soon, pinning that squad down and stirring up the bee hive before both squads are in good positions.

                              Its not a hard order to follow (stay still and stay alert, wait for our reinforcements to get into position) but youd be surprised the huge vast majority of PR players who cant follow that simple order.

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