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Tactical Infantry Squads?

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  • Tactical Infantry Squads?

    So far I have not really tried out my intro script (see Squad Intro). Lately it is reduced to: "No sniper kits, one medic, we spawn here." For some reason it usually works quite well. And because of that there is little incentive to change that way of 'laid back' way of playing. Still, after playing a couple of games I remember very little of the game. Yes, we capture flags, kill, destroy, and get top scores, but it doesn't seem to be giving enough satisfaction.

    I have been reading up on the 1st MIP handbooks (see this forum) and some comments on their actions. I guess their style of play is what I am missing. But you cannot do it on your own. So I would like some opinions on seting up a handbook for tactical infantry squads containing information about squad layouts, movement, formation, fire discipline. I would be willing to write parts of the manual and draw a few diagrams (visuals should always help). Once finished we could direct players ingame to the Tactical Infantry Squad thread, hopefully encouraging some to join TG and exchange experiences.

    But before starting on that manual I first need to know wether there is interest in this way of playing and wether anyone is willing to join up with me (as squad leader or fire team leader) in a squad and start teaching it to other players.


  • #2
    Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

    I have personally given up on all this fireteam SH*T because I it dont work properelly. And I know I have too high expectations to think that some pub or a person that never spend a day in the armed forces to understand how it works in a 5 min explanation. I remember how hard it was when you started shooting had to get the right reports of in times and at the same time 3 other people were shouting, can easilly happen in real combat too the stress factor didnt get lower when you started training with real bullets...

    I would like to help you but I think it would be more usefull to make videos of how its supposed to work then they can sit back and watch these and see what the different persons in the squad will do, this will require more work but find 6 guys that are willing to spend the time on the private server training these things to perfection and then pit them against an opfor to shoot a instructional video, im asuming that i as a SM would be abel to borrow the private server for this

    Then make a video about:
    - How to sweep a village like NV or SV on kashan
    - Urban combat, how to move and clear building.
    - Woodland tactics, movement in wooded areas and effective fighting
    - Desert tactics, the same as for the woodland areas.
    - (How to use vehicles with the infantry (Jeeps and APC's)

    these would be nice to have a, there would be a breakdown of what happens when there is made contact with the enemy and how to break contact. how the different formations can be used/adapted.

    I would like to give a hand in this project since I think that it would have a better effect. But if this doesnt sound like a good idea im also up for helping to write and come with input.

    also you might wanna view this thread

    Also as you have experinced I dont work with set fireteams at most pubs have a hard time remembering what team they are on so if I need a support element i just pick the guys that are best suited for the task. This is because that PR is much more sporadic and much more fastpaced than real life, this means that your tactics cant be too structured because some things are not gonna be done the way you would expect.
    If people are becoming so bored when playing that they have to resort to this immature behaviour I will give them something to do, call it a project. The project is "appeal a ban". - Wicks


    • #3
      Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

      I basically start the squad up the same way, except that I normally assign an automatic rifleman kit while I'm at it since it's such an invaluable kit. Setting up anything more than that ahead of the round is usually not worth the trouble, though, since no plan is going to survive first contact. Instead, I just try (and I emphasize, try) to use methods that work well in a pub setting to encourage teamwork and proper tactics. Keeping everyone talking, putting markers on places they need to shoot, and avoiding situations that turn into cluster****s is generally the first place to start, but there's also other tricks to get mroe elaborate tactics out of people.

      For instance, instead of trying to get people to set up overwatch for the squad as it crosses the bridge, it's usually a good idea to just do the job yourself and announce it to the squad. Usually a few people clue in and help out, and if you do it often enough in a round it'll become a habit for everyone. On top of that, you can often get better results not by ordering people to do something (though on TG, most players listen to SL orders well enough) but by doing something and then asking someone to give you a hand ("I'm keeping that APC distracted, could somebody hit it with LAT?")

      Those kinds of teamwork encouraging techniques really, really, help in pub games. Anyone else have tricks like that?


      • #4
        Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

        As SL, I just waggle a sniper kit on the end of a fishing pole in front of their beady little eyes. Nothing gets a team jump-started faster than the prospect of long-range rifles.


        • #5
          Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

          I promise that if everybody does what is asked of them, to the best of their ability, that they will have a great round.

          That seems to do the trick for me. I have never had to "wave a sniper rifle" infront of my squad to bribe them to play good. Infact, I don't use marksmen or snipers except in rare occasions.


          • #6
            Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

            Marksman should be in every infantry squad I reckon, its almost overpowered it can be so effective but sniper nope

            Last edited by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger; 07-14-2008, 12:27 AM.

            If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.


            • #7
              Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

              I'd be interested in playing this way though I think Katanama nails it on the head with the Military Training, it would take time and effort for a dedicated group.

              The issue at hand is there is a spectrum of players and I think this is the question at hand, 'training the spectrum'. It's hard enough as you guys say having 'your expectations' over 'people playing and their expectations'.

              As SL's you know that in general it takes time to understand the baseline if random people joining a squad and are willing to listen and do things (and others in the squad aswell). If they are then you up a stage. And of course - you have to be on form too because if not they may leave (or you kick) or not grow with you and more specifically maybe as it begins with number one - you not with them. It's about the group, eh. Growing together (though I see you know that so it's speaking about the factors that effect group dynamics, not direct - just to make sure).

              So I guess the trick is, is to find 'ways to input that philosophy over a spectrum of player sets'. For example, as you suggest, treating 'random squad joiners and feeling for the attitude of that squad to mess in, or not - which includes yourself'. And take it from there, seeing if they can do spacing, or and extended line. Or a gun group peel off to lay down 'effective fire' before a flanking assualt (Commanders/teams understanding principles over targets and communication, and such like in game is another matter, another talk, and another training but stems from the same root).

              On a more tactical note. The question for me is, would this be US training in specific? Or would other 'schools' be incorporated like say, for me as I have had a very little but I guess still relevant (but can't teach it as it's so little), the British 'Section' formation and firefight drills, including house clearing. I am unsure what has the best school of thought for example or could not even begin to make suggestions as to what sounds good. I mean, I didn't go to Sandhurst so I couldn't describe one thought over another (just a noob see).

              Willing to learn, I think this a great idea and a new experience. I remember a Danish guy helping to improve a PR team in a competition, and it worked thunderously. So it does work. And I'm interested and think alot of SL's and squadies would be, as I meet them most days in the game, this is a good place to do it and 'be part of a group of collectively minded people to be just regular, human minded, and great guys/girls'. You are sure to find many people in corners you wouldn't think of that would be and are, an asset. I am sure you'll find alot of people behind you on this.


              • #8
                Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                Well almost everyone can come with an awesome tactic if they use some time to test out different ways of assault, sniper, anti-tank etc.

                And some people just follow a tectic they got from someone else.
                Look under your chair!


                • #9
                  Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                  Good to see these responses.

                  A few things:
                  The SL needs to be up to the job. Perhaps training should first go into getting to know how to lead; explain things, use markers, orders, kit layouts etc. If the SMs think that their SL knows his business then they will be far more likely to follow orders. On the other hand a SL giving too many orders because his SMs do not know how to play will likely result in players leaving.

                  Played a game where I started out pretty good with kit layouts fire teams and all the SMs following orders. We did well but I lost control after a few contacts. Still getting a thank you from a SM makes me think that the SMs did appreciate it. Second game I got BloodAce joining me and we tried to use fire teams. Again no objection from the SMs, yet it didn't work quite well. Random players do seem to be interested and willing. For the coming time I am training myself in squad layout and splitting up the squad when assaulting. Then I will try to analyze what I am doing and write part of the manual.

                  Good to see that there is interest. How shall we proceed? Start with writing about squad intro (not just for the SL, but also SM telling the SL that he is interested in playing tactical), squad layout and decision making when assaulting?

                  (Will get back to this. I do not have much time left at the moment.)


                  • #10
                    Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                    Originally posted by Katanama View Post
                    I have personally given up on all this fireteam SH*T because I it dont work properelly. And I know I have too high expectations to think that some pub or a person that never spend a day in the armed forces to understand how it works in a 5 min explanation.
                    I agree. Most players other than good PR players or former military really "get it" when it comes to more complex squad maneuvers. That also applys to commanding squads that don't follow the commnader's orders"


                    • #11
                      Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                      Of course, but I am new to this game and still have some enthusiasm left to see wether infantry squads can play more tactical. If I just keep on playing I am sure, over a few months, I have become bittered with little hope of seeing tactical play.

                      Plus I do not expect all players to change their style of playing. But if we can get a few like-minded persons in the same squad(s) then we have accomplished alot. The first problem is setting a standard so that if people see a TAC INF squad (or whatever the tag) they know what to expect. We can make a player list so we know who to invite to get the squad going, exchange experiences on the forum, write up after action reports. I think Taip3n is right about people lurking in corners waiting for tactical play being practiced.

                      Katanama, great offer! However I have no experience with battle recorder or video editing so I cannot help you with it except for playing out the examples.


                      • #12
                        Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                        I dont have any experience with BFR but i think im going to sit down and play around with it later on or if we could convince kevlar or someone else that have alot of experience in the field of BF2 videos to give a hand it might become a better job. I have some experience editing videos of Real life footage so I can do the editing but dont know how BFR works, but its a good reason to try it out...
                        If people are becoming so bored when playing that they have to resort to this immature behaviour I will give them something to do, call it a project. The project is "appeal a ban". - Wicks


                        • #13
                          Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                          Aye. I remember Tigger helped with some advise aboutt he 'black screen' in the BFrecorder. That's a first port of call. I guess.

                          What was it to get rid of that black screen Tigger?

                          Some extra thoughts I'll be as honest as I can, and thanks, yeah they are out there alright.
                          It's a hard role. But as said, a praise is great, especially when you yourself feel that it was an unworthy time because of the 'signals' you recieve in your own head saying it was not.

                          <Edited because after reading Wickens' post, I believe he says it all alot alot alot better than the ramble I just did>

                          Luck comes into play. And to be honest you have to make it as much as you can. I have made this mistake often when I don't listen to my inner feeling. Other times, it is the squad memeber that don't listen. A bad run can make a bad run. Of course the opposite too, or some fun for all atleast. Because the second to last is what happens and why people move away from such situations; not to be exposed, not to feel down beat, not to feel highlighted as in error. It is, after all meant to be fun. Eh.
                          Last edited by Taip3n; 07-14-2008, 01:33 PM. Reason: Wickens says it alot better below


                          • #14
                            Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                            Fishbone, nice posts, it's always good to see players looking at stepping up the tactics and effectiveness of their style of play. One word of warning. You are clearly putting a lot of thought and effort in to this so don't let early struggles put you off, neverless temper your expectations accordingly. Below is something I posted in a similar thread abouut being patient with inexperienced players. Might help save you a little heartache in the future. Nothing worse than trying something worthwhile and having to give up out of frustration when it fails initially due to players being simply unable to cope with it all. Don't forget you will come across players that are straight out of vanilla and totally new to the actual game of PR, nevermind the concept of tactical movement and realistic discipline. Here it is for what its worth.

                            "One thing I would say is to not over burden new players with excessive direction as an SL in the wrong circumstances. Try and bring them along gently during the round. I usually request the squad contains certain kits and let the SM's choose, explaining why we need these kits. I will place move markers and explain where we are going and why, i.e. anticipated opfor moves/tactics vs our own objectives. As the round progresses and we (hopefully) start shaping up like a squad I try and introduce more complexity like methods of movement and fire conditions. It depends who is in the squad, how the game is going and how hectic it is.

                            If your moving through dense forest/trees on a map like Bi-Ming I don't get too specific about movement other than to give general instructions. I will put attack markers up for enemy sightings as quickly as I can etc. What I don't want on terrain that often brings quick draw shoot outs is the guy next to me looking at his map or worrying that he is a few metres too close to his squad mate when he should be engaging the enemy.

                            In those situations new players can get put off if they feel like they can't put a foot right and keep getting mown down because they are trying to move tactically instead of just staying alive. This isn't formation dancing, sometimes it pays to give players a little room to manoeuvre when the proverbial is hitting the fan. As the new players get more experience you can step up your expectations of them and introduce more tactical elements to your play, combining the ability to fight with the desired ability to move tactically. If you can make it enjoyable for the new players and they can taste a little victory in a few fire fights they then return for the next round and you try the next step. Nothing worse than being a new player with a squad leader thatís watched a couple of army training videos and thinks he's Patton, balling you out for being a couple of centimetres out of line as you are killed yet again by the enemy he forgot to identify and engage.

                            People play to enjoy themselves and squad discipline does adds to the immersion, just remember if you are an experienced SL you are on a whole different page to the new guys. Being a good teacher as it were is a very difficult skill and the responsibility lies with you to bring the squad along not the other way around".

                            Keep it up mate, just remember it's a long road and always cut your cloth according to who you have in your squad.


                            • #15
                              Re: Tactical Infantry Squads?

                              well said wickens..... but what about your stalin like aproach to being an SL lol, kidding.




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