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  • Several questions regarding the rules

    1) why is it not allowed to attack vehicles in the enemy main, assuming they are unmanned? I understand, say, strafing a jet on the kashan airfield, but why can't a spec-ops SLAM a tank? Is it a case of avoiding the Slippery Slope?
    2) Regarding mining roads out of mains: I understand enough to know that mining an absolute chokepoint (I.E. a bridge, or a break in the HESCO barriers) is a no-no, but can we mine the road and land at a chokepoint a bit beyond the main (IE the shear road south of the US pigfarm on Qwai River, after the hairpin) so that it is impassible?
    3) I'll explain the next set of questions with hypotheticals, please tell me what you, as a Squad member, should do: You are a squadmember of Squad 1. Squad 1 leader is named SL1. The Commander is named COM. AAS says that you can defend pt1, attack pt2, and pt3 is the enemy main. You are currently defending pt1.
    3a) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt2
    3b) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt3
    3c) COM tells SL1 to attack pt3, and SL1 tells you to attack pt3
    4) "One man locked squads are not allowed": Why not? What about in situations like Al Basrah, where there is only one chopper, or a dedicated AA squad on a map with only 1 AAV (not sure if there are any of this situation presently). Should a chopper pilot allow randoms into the squad who would either sit in the passenger seat or just go fight?

    Thanks in advance for answering these nagging questions!

  • #2
    Re: Several questions regarding the rules

    1) Because, it would rob from the gameplay. More people would want to do sabotage, and if they did get into the enemy main, it would increase the possibility of baserape.

    2) You're allowed to mine roads out of the main, but not too close. You could probably mine that road to the south of pigfarm, as it is well away from the flag. But, check with the admins on that.

    3) I don't understand...

    4) Working alone usually means your not using any teamwork. If you want to fly a chopper, get a co-pilot and lock the squad. Then get on TS to coordinate. Simple.

    The rules are the rules, and I think they improve gameplay rather than hinder it. Image people rushing to your main in a jeep, slapping slams on all your vehicles then speeding out. It would be stupid...
    |TG|
    ||||


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    • #3
      Re: Several questions regarding the rules

      Read the TG primer, linked in my signature, to see what our philosophy is regarding gaming and the type of culture we try to promote here at TG is. This will probably answer 99.9% of your questions.

      Originally posted by Riffraffselbow View Post
      1) why is it not allowed to attack vehicles in the enemy main, assuming they are unmanned? I understand, say, strafing a jet on the kashan airfield, but why can't a spec-ops SLAM a tank? Is it a case of avoiding the Slippery Slope?
      A couple of reasons:
      1. Allowing enemy forces into the main increases the likelihood of a player getting killed who just spawned in. This is spawn-camping and it just isn't allowed on this server. While the whole map is "hostile", the main represents the enemy main base of operations and in reality would be well protected and unapproachable by a single soldier or even a squad.
      2. Vehicles in PR have a long spawn time. Allowing attacks on these before they can even enter the field is seriously detrimental to the team, both in terms of their ability to fight and also in terms of game play. Imagine the fun had by all when, on Kashan, the other team has no choppers, tanks or jets and a majority of their team is stuck in their main. Good times!


      Originally posted by Riffraffselbow View Post
      2) Regarding mining roads out of mains: I understand enough to know that mining an absolute chokepoint (I.E. a bridge, or a break in the HESCO barriers) is a no-no, but can we mine the road and land at a chokepoint a bit beyond the main (IE the shear road south of the US pigfarm on Qwai River, after the hairpin) so that it is impassible?
      What is this fascination with attacking the enemy main? Are you some super leet Navy SEAL or something?

      If we said you couldn't mine at 100 meters from the enemy main, would you put a mine at 101 meters? If you agree it is not ok to put mines at the exits from the enemy main, why are you asking if it is ok to put slams on tanks in the main?

      The rules (again, linked in my signature) make it very clear what is acceptable and what is not with regard to the enemy main. You cannot destroy the enemy CP in .8, so there is no reason to be there - period.

      Originally posted by Riffraffselbow View Post
      3) I'll explain the next set of questions with hypotheticals, please tell me what you, as a Squad member, should do: You are a squadmember of Squad 1. Squad 1 leader is named SL1. The Commander is named COM. AAS says that you can defend pt1, attack pt2, and pt3 is the enemy main. You are currently defending pt1.
      3a) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt2
      3b) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt3
      3c) COM tells SL1 to attack pt3, and SL1 tells you to attack pt3
      Simple: You are required to follow SL orders and reasonable CO orders. You can figure that one out.

      *EDIT* All other rules still apply, regardless of SL or CO orders. Rules supersede any orders you may receive. *EDIT*


      Originally posted by Riffraffselbow View Post
      4) "One man locked squads are not allowed": Why not? What about in situations like Al Basrah, where there is only one chopper, or a dedicated AA squad on a map with only 1 AAV (not sure if there are any of this situation presently). Should a chopper pilot allow randoms into the squad who would either sit in the passenger seat or just go fight?

      After reading the primer, I'm sure you can answer this one. However, just to make it clear: We promote teamplay here. One-man locked squads are the antithesis of teamplay. Additionally, there are only 9 squads available per team, and if we allow one-man locked squads, it reduces the number of available slots for players on the server. Maybe not one, but if we allow it then who's to say that there aren't 5 or 6? Then there's a problem.

      Bottom line: All of the rules you've questioned and even the ones you haven't are there for really one purpose: To promote a fun experience for the players on our server. They will be enforced, regardless of who it is that violates them. Punishment can, and often will be, swift and severe.

      We simply do not tolerate BS on the server.
      Last edited by disposableHero; 09-04-2008, 08:55 AM.

      "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Several questions regarding the rules

        Riffraff, what d1sp0 said. ^^^

        The primer will help. Just keep a tactical mind-set.

        The hammer of has fallen!
        |TG|
        ||||


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        • #5
          Re: Several questions regarding the rules

          To answer the three parts of your third question:
          First, understand that there is some give between what is required and what you can actually do. Keep in mind that this is within reason, so if anyone attempts to go beyond what is reasonable and says "oh, well ferris said I can do this", I will personally have your ass.

          If the commander tells you to attack something while you're in the middle of doing something else, it is perfectly permissible to talk to the CO and let him in on the gameplan you're running. If thats kosher with him, then fine. If he says no, you snap to and follow orders so long as theyre reasonable. Also, if the commander orders you into a situation you know is suicide, it is your responsibility to tell him so. If you dont and the CO reports you for disobeying CO orders, thats YOUR fault, not his.

          If you are a squad member, you wont have knowledge of what the CO is telling your SL most of the time, so you follow his orders. The burden of not following CO orders is on the squad leaders, not on the individual squad members unless its a situation involving vehicles or kits. If your SL disobeys CO move orders and you obey SL orders, the onus is on the SL, not you (again, within reason...saying that you broke the rules because your SL told you to is not an excuse that will hold water).

          So, keeping those things in mind:
          3a-Follow SL orders.
          3b-You know the main is off limits and its your responsibility as a player on the server who knows the rules to remind the SL. If he insists, report him for ordering his squad to break the rules. We dont allow rule breakers or people forcing others to break the rules.
          3c-Your SL and CO are in agreement in telling you to break the rules. See above.

          Other than that, listen to what Disposable said. Remember that when you are on the server, he is one of your gods. Failing to heed his wisdom will cost you dearly.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Several questions regarding the rules

            Originally posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0 View Post
            Simple: You are required to follow SL orders and reasonable CO orders. You can figure that one out.
            The problem is that the SL/CO are asking him to attack the main in two cases when it is not in play. I would say that those orders are not reasonable considering the rules on UCB.

            Originally posted by Riffraffselbow
            3) I'll explain the next set of questions with hypotheticals, please tell me what you, as a Squad member, should do: You are a squadmember of Squad 1. Squad 1 leader is named SL1. The Commander is named COM. AAS says that you can defend pt1, attack pt2, and pt3 is the enemy main. You are currently defending pt1.
            3a) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt2
            3b) COM tells SL1 to defend pt1, but SL1 tells you to attack pt3
            3c) COM tells SL1 to attack pt3, and SL1 tells you to attack pt3
            3a) You should do as he tells you or leave the squad if you disagree with his decission to disregard coms orders.
            3b) I would inform my SL that he is not allowed to attack pt3 yet since it is the main. He have to wait till pt 2 is fully capped.
            3c) I would ask the SL to inform the CO of what I stated above.

            In case the SL still want to attack the main I would leave the squad and keep an eye on him to see if he starts the attack before the flag is in play.

            Edit: Ferris beat me:(
            If people are becoming so bored when playing that they have to resort to this immature behaviour I will give them something to do, call it a project. The project is "appeal a ban". - Wicks



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            • #7
              Re: Several questions regarding the rules

              Originally posted by Katanama View Post
              The problem is that the SL/CO are asking him to attack the main in two cases when it is not in play. I would say that those orders are not reasonable considering the rules on UCB.
              You're right Kat - I'll be honest, I didn't even bother to read that part. I've edited my original reply, but to save time:

              The rules supersede any orders you may receive. So, in English, don't execute any orders that you know violates the server rules.

              "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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              • #8
                Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                Thanks again for all of the wonderful, well constructed responses. If you want to lock it, go ahead, I think we've gone through this about as much as we need to.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                  Indeed.

                  As an Sl in Mutrah and getting used to the game in general I came accross a CO that was brow beating and micromanaging the team, to put it blankly.

                  Having made a bunker at docks he repeatedly demanded a squad to land near MEC fortress and build another bunker. My squad did.

                  However he then asked us to attack Fortress. Now you have to imagine the stress of a CO in your earphones berating the whole team and insisting his actions carried out, whilst my squad (all good guys and stuck with it) and others listen to him and his knowledge of how to win. You can not hear your squad for a start when all you get is constant chatter and a barrage of insistance from a CO like this, never mind the stress to 'want to do right'.

                  Now, I figured Fortress was MEC main and asked in team, the reply was yes. So I refused to attack according to TG rules. Instead we quickly passed besides/through under strict instructions not to return fire and take a death (my squad stuck with me and was at a loss to do, but do the best we can), establishing a rally well away from 'Main'. The Commander had already givien us instructions, wanting us to cap another flag out of play, though this was more reasonable due to our squad may having being in a position to harrass the enemy at some point in the city. Passing through and being utterly useless and recieving no contact, and going slowly through the city, after repeated attempts (and my squad falling more at a loss as I explained the situation) I got us evac'ed out, to an actually useful position. The point is, was to be patient with the Commander whilst explaining the rules and the situation; there was no point in being confrontational - it would not have served the purpose for anyone, at that time. Other squad leaders were having the same difficulty whilst under fire.

                  The point is as Disposable says, the rules superceed anything else. Yes, we tried to adhere to the Commanders' orders, but a simple enforcing/explaining of the rules, sorted out the question of attacking Main.

                  Quite frankly, it is unfair to the other team to do so and is unsportsman like, and sortsmanship is part of the TG philosophy.

                  All I have to say is that my squad acted impecably during that time, and although downhearted at the time, they stuck besides me, as we manouvered into a more useful position, and always carried out my instructions, whilst this went on. Thumbs up.
                  Last edited by Taip3n; 09-04-2008, 11:37 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                    1) If you ask me, Its so that the Spec Ops kit doesnt become usefull.. (Disagree with the rule, but I didnt make it, and dont have the power to change it. Following the rules is your #1 in TG)

                    2) If the gate is mined, your doing it wrong.

                    3a) You would attack Pt2, since you wouldnt know what the COM said.
                    3b) Its against the rules, tell your newb(as in new player) SL so.
                    3c) Like 3b, but if your SL has any sense, he would tell the COM so as well.

                    4) My new an improved AAS squads.
                    1) Pilot
                    2) Spec Ops for spotting
                    3) Anti Air
                    4) Gunner
                    5) (In terms of trans helis) Another gunner
                    6) SL with Officer kit, for extra spotting.

                    If its a one trans heli map, make the squad, but dont lock it. Simply. Get Gunners.


                    ~Sirsolo
                    |TG-Irr|Sirsolo since 18OCT08.

                    Carpe Diem

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                    • #11
                      Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                      Have any of you even played vanilla BF2? lol

                      one guy can sneak into your main base and take out every single tank, jet, helo there...giving his team a very decisive advantage. What frightens me even more in PR is that most of these assets are far more deadly, much more limited, and take a very long time to spawn in...which would make for very crappy game-play. It's hard enough to even get a squad to stay and defend a bridge on Fool's Road. You think we could ever get a squad to stay and defend our main for a complete game? yuck.
                      |TG-X|WAREHOUSE

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                      • #12
                        Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                        Originally posted by sirsolo View Post
                        1) If you ask me, Its so that the Spec Ops kit doesnt become usefull.. (Disagree with the rule, but I didnt make it, and dont have the power to change it. Following the rules is your #1 in TG)
                        Project Reality version .8 doesn't allow the CP to be destroyed. TG didn't take away the usefulness of the spec ops kit, the DEVs did (if you think that is the sole purpose of the kit).

                        So, what is the point of being in the main unless it is to spawn camp? Planting SLAMS on a tank or other vehicle while it is in the main is spawn camping - period. What are the odds of someone being near the vehicle or in the vehicle when they go off? Pretty good, I'd say.

                        Spec Ops has plenty of usage: taking down fire bases and bunkers, for instance. Also being a forward observer for the team, spotting for CAS and relaying intel on enemy movement. However, there are also plenty of instances where you don't need a spec ops to accomplish your mission. People want spec ops so they can have an excuse to Rambo in PR. I'd venture to guess that the percentage of players that actually use the kit to it's fullest of the total that take the kit is about 25%. The other 75% just want to sneak into the main and blow up a tank or apc and then gloat about it in public chat. Pfff.

                        "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                          Another note on locked squads...

                          Take the example of a round with only one chopper. You now have a chopper squad, with one person as a pilot.

                          Now lets say you have a sniper team... 2 snipers in a locked squad.

                          That's two of the 9 total squads allowed. Merge those squads and you have a sniper team with direct coms with the chopper pilot who is probably gonna be their main transport for the round. They can also help out if the chopper is trying to get troops to an LZ where there is an enemy AA presence (not AAV obviously, but 50 cals... stingers, or deployed AA near a FB/Bunker).

                          Same with CAS. I've found that the recent strategy myself and a few others have been using for CAS squads to work out pretty well. One officer, two spec ops, and your pilot team in the CAS squad. The officer can mark for the pilots, and he can laze. He is also able to listen to the commander without disturbing any in-squad com traffic, and relay information while safely under cover or concealment. The two spec ops can also laz, and everyone is on the same com channel. This works really well when your ground troops in the squad "hitch" a ride with other squads to set up forward observation posts and provide real time communication for hard targets directly to the CAS pilots. This helps a ton when there is no commander, and even when there is this can really speed up the response time of your CAS group.

                          So for all you 2 and 3 man CAS locked squads... you might want to consider having some non-pilots in there to help coordinate.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                            Most mainbases have a dome of death around them anyways, so good luck trying to get inside them with spec ops

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                            • #15
                              Re: Several questions regarding the rules

                              One thing I've never really understood because it hasn't come up too often is which officer we listen to when the SL and COM's orders conflict. I would think that we initially do what the SL says and if we find out the CO's true order via the text chat or whatnot then we can report the SL for not following CO orders. Am I correct in thinking this?


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