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Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

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  • Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

    This discussion was about 2142's IHS situation. I thought it would be relevant to PR.

    This is not a soapbox.

    This is a legitimate discussion about one of our server and community's issues. Keep it constructive, keep it civil.

    Originally posted by 2142 IHS member
    I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting tired of everyone waiting for me or another IHS tagged player to start and lead a squad. This might be one of the main contributors to why I'm beginning to burn out on 2142 again. Each night that I play is the same thing, the same people leading a squad round after round and the same non-IHS players in the 2142 TS channel begging for invites. There are nights were I just want to sit back and be a grunt, follow orders, not have to worry about the annoying CO or the fact that we have no CO.

    I would like to suggest that we each start encouraging players that normally do not lead to start running their own squad and invite us for a change rather than the other way around. This will hopefully not only lead to more diverse gaming (not seeing the same plays round after round) but might also encourage more players to utilize the newer TS Team 1 and Team 2 channels.

    The same holds true for the IHS members that never step up to the plate to lead, get over yourself and do it. It's not that hard, you've played the game enough to be a member of an in house squad, have some faith in yourself and start a squad. If you're not all that comfortable, ask for advice once you're in the squad. A great thing to do is focus on one flag and attack it or defend it, but don't get tunnel vision. Don't take flak. You never know, you might actually enjoy it... :)
    Originally posted by TheSkudDestroyer
    Welcome to Project Reality. It's gotten to the point where I flat out lie to certain players to try to keep them out of my squads - they have "invite diarrha." They refuse to step up and lead squads of their own.

    Playing with my devils and other IHS is great and all, but one of the most redeeming qualities you'll find on our servers is the following: public players who blow you away when they're in your squad. Guys who follow orders to the T, listen, and are functional. I've found that a lot of these pub guys are BETTER than the "invite diarrhea" guys...

    TG tagged players have become so latched onto IHS' that they become paralyzed when they're not in a "good squad." And that, my friends, is elitist BS that creates problems like teamstacking. "That team had no good SL's" is never an excuse for players to switch sides - if you don't like the leadership on your team - STEP UP.

    I agree with *********'s assessment - if players want to improve the quality of THEIR game-time, they need to put in the time themselves. Rarely in the past YEAR have I been in a squad consistantly. I'm a 24/7 SL presence on our server.

    I'm not saying I dislike it, but boy, it's a welcome break when I can sit back and be a squad member. Which is becoming harder and harder to do...

    It's a complicated problem, not just on 2142's front.

    EDIT: This is not a slight at anyone or any other IHS, but this is how the Devils do it: We recruit primarily on leadership skill. All 18 of us are leaders on the PR server (Some more than others [But we have old warhorses like Dirtboy and myself that have put in more hours as SL than we ever will as SM]). Moreover, all of us are familiar with the CO role (Of course, some more than others. You'll rarely see some of us CO, but we are all pretty competent. We also have some regular CO's like AFsoccer [Retired AF Major] that set us apart as an in house squad.)

    Once again, this is not a slight on anyone. Every IHS has it's leaders and followers. I just thought I'd share that we have an obvious amount of leaders for the very reason that when the team needs us to lead, we can and will.

    IHS have always been a solid leadership and mentor backbone in the community - lets not lose sight of that goal. But remember that we're all here to have fun. If you're burnt out SL'ing and want to take a night off - you deserve it. IHS' SL's have certainly put in their time - so should other members.

    Originally posted by PR IHS member
    Its not just a 2142 problem man. I have the same Issue in PR and POE2.

    Its not that I dislike SL. It just... sometimes I want to play you know. Run and gun, stray from the pack use an Asset.

    Thing is whe the IHS members are not SL's the team has very little chance of winning. So its a trade off. Have fun and fail. Or SL and win. Weak,
    Originally posted by 2142 IHS member
    The other night I decided not to lead and didn't. The team had one squad created 10 seconds before spawn time with quite a few TG tagged players sitting in the unassigned queue. Even when presented with the possibility that there team might be at a serious disadvantage with only one squad, nobody stepped up. With five seconds left 2 pubbies created squads which filled up rather quickly. Sorry, but that is ridiculous and it is in no way unique.

    To anyone who says they aren't good at it, that's a cop out. It takes many rounds to get comfortable with the role but once you are you'll find that it really is not that hard, especially with a seasoned squad and/or CO.

    One more thing, if another person creates a squad and invites me in aonly to leave and rejoin as a squad member instead of the leader, I'm going to take *****'s banhammer and crack someone's skull with it.
    Last edited by Skud; 09-26-2008, 12:10 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

    I used to Command a lot back in 0.7, but not so much in 0.8. I haven't SLed nearly as much as I've commanded, but I feel I've gotten fairly good at it. The problem I've found is that it's difficult to "keep the troops in line", as it were. I've led squads with very good players who I'd like to play with again, but I've rarely been entirely happy with a squad as a whole before. There's always the random guy who joins the squad, picks up a (insert limited kit here), and goes off on his own to misuse it. Sometimes there are two to five of these people.

    In recent times, I've even been asked to squad lead on a few occasions, possibly because I wear the |TG| tag now. I'm usually somewhat hesitant to squad lead, though, because I do come to Tactical Gamer for a realistic gaming experience with mature people. If I'm going to babysit, I expect to be payed. Now, this is not to say that I dislike new players; I actually enjoy teaching newcomers how to play, from time to time. The people who bother me are those who rarely use voice chat, even though they have a microphone, and go off to do their own thing, only staying with the squad when given a direct order.

    I've seen SLs who keep squads running smoothly by kicking those who lose focus and start doing their own thing, and I've done the same a few times. The problem with this is that it leaves the squad a man short, and I'm not Charity Case so once my squad starts shrinking it usually just keeps going downhill from there.

    My question to those who experience the same issues is this: how do you handle your squad and keep them in line?

    Giving orders and making the "tough" decisions (as tough as they get in a game where death lasts 5 min at most) isn't nearly as hard as dealing with squadies who don't follow orders.


    • #3
      Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

      Very true.

      However there are times when this doesn't apply, usually during the time I like to call the Euro Gongshow Power Hour(s), when there (usually) isn't any admin on [This is when the majority of NA people are sleeping, and starting or already started any minute now] and I mean it's not great but lots of people step up and just lead and others follow (even though there is a lot of understrength squads running around doing there own thing, as well as one man locked squads running off with special kits, etc. [thus the name]. It does seem to happen often when the majority of the people playing are from an IHS that you see a lack of pubs wanting to step up.

      I personally don't mind playing an SL every once in awhile but it's a grueling task having to get (At the very most) 5 other people you have never/rarely played with before to follow your orders or those of your CO. Nobody likes to do this for prolonged periods of times. It's worse when you aren't in one of the squads that get autolocked right from the get go and you feel like you don't want to waste your time taking orders from people you don't know or feel are worthy of leading you, etc....

      In general more people need to step up and realize its not that difficult to lead a squad or even a team to victory it just takes patience and time.

      /getoff soapbox
      Pride/Shame of the PLA


      • #4
        Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

        I think it's a good thing for everyone to SL at least a few times. One problem with being an SL in PR over other games is that the rounds are so much longer. I will admit that I'm not the greatest squad leader, I generally have a very simple plan with basic tactics. (move here, flank if necessary, kill everyone, take objective) After an hour or two of this my mind begins to numb and I find myself playing like an SM (wanting to try insanely foolish tactics just for the hell of it) although I suppose if I do it enough I will get more used to it.


        • #5
          Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

          Ive sort of seen this as well..

          But here's some problems that Ive also been seeing:

          From what I've read, all IHS' need to be able to Squad lead. There are at least (I would say...)7 of them on the server at one point in time.. (Sort of a random number)
          Thats 7 possible squads.

          Here's the problem: They make one squad. And they lock it. So no pubbies, no SLs, nothing.

          I would just be nice to see IHS members make a squad and keep it open once.. I hear them saying how they'll teach you etc. when you're in their squad, but that involves getting in said locked squad. Very Rare.

          Pretty much the only time Ive seen it unlocked is after the round has gone in about 5 min (and people already have a plan with another squad etc.) or when they leave. Which defeats the purpose.

          I see where this is coming from, and my solution (other then the ones mentioned above about the IHS') is to have an SL course. *ding ding*

          |TG-Irr|Sirsolo since 18OCT08.

          Carpe Diem


          • #6
            Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

            I would be happy to mentor one or two people who are seriously interested in becoming competent squad leaders. Please PM me if you're interested. I'll respond to the rest of this topic at a more convenient time. Good night.


            • #7
              Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

              I nearly always squadlead (and will again as soon as I ditch my crappy isp), simply because I'm too much of a know-it-all to follow :p.

              Imo if you want to start squadleading, the most important thing is, to have a plan. Have a plan, formulate an objective, make it interesting. Don't worry about the failing. Everyone can fail miserably on 0.8 as a SL, more so because you depend so much on the rest of your team now.

              Also it is very important to kick people that do not follow the project you have set. I find the worst squadmembers are veteran players that don't follow orders. Often you will know them so it is harder to politely kick them without stepping on some toes. They are good, but they are soooo irritating. You have a duty imo to kick bad apples. The duty is is towards your squadmembers.

              I do feel that it is correct that the problem pointed out in this thread is worse when there are many IHS members on. It also ties in to teamstacking issues imo. There is a gang of people that want to play with the IHS all the time, and switch over to get to them all the time. The stacking is not done on purpose by the IHS, but by the people stalking them :).

              Luckily we can always count on DB and Fuzz's gang to start like 8 squads for the rest of the team and then leave them :).

              This problem may fix itself as people learn 0.8 better I hope.


              • #8
                Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                This is a really interesting problem. I very much like the low stress grunt position every so often... it's a nice break from being in charge of 5 (possibly) cooperative people and juggling SL needs with team and CO needs. I only usually get this when I join mid round, though... I usually end up leading a squad more often than not these days.

                I wonder if the solution is as simple as noticing which squad members have a good grasp of the battlefield and then encouraging them to start their own squad the following round.


                • #9
                  Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                  Let me weigh in on a discussion, something i rarely do.

                  I have played PR from a 5.xx.x. version and I have loved it for it's evolving teamwork, difficulting, and attention to detail.

                  I have been SL many teams, for mostly armor or INF depending on the mission. I used to CO in .6 .7 as it was valuable and while it was "not as exciting" i enjoyed the flow of the mission and the resulting teamwork on working with SLs.

                  I have to say that it seems like people cared more about the CO's battle plan if they had something to lose from not listening, or at least communicating with the CO.

                  .8 makes the CO less important and i think that is acutally hurting the game at this point, especially on servers like TG where you have a tight community of regulars.

                  DOT DOT DOT

                  That being said, I am a pretty good player individually and with squads. I used to lead a lot and had a decent following of "squad whores" so to speak. AKA people mentioned above as "known squad leaders" that people wait to get into their squads.

                  I myself am guilty of this on multiple occasions. I follow some TGers or regulars even though I am capable of leading my own squad. I wait to step up even when I know i should step up.

                  Hell, i play TF2 to escape from the rigors of PR which are fading as command structure seems to be slowly dying.

                  We can fix this, threads like this will help.


                  I have to give a big shout out to the class based and dedicated squadies. People who always go medic or engineer when asked. Some of you are the most skilled and help the game the most when you work your best angle. I give a huge amount of respect despite what i say in game. You guys make it work just as much as people willing to go SL or CO.

                  On that note, I think this community and mod will survive and it will improve. I expect and rely on that. A special note from a forum lurker who often feels he has nothing to add to the conversation and would rather be in-game (even if he's acting like a jackass).

                  -Magnus Storm

                  10 points to whoever read all of that crap.


                  • #10
                    Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                    I SL a lot, often during the 'Euro time' whenever that is. I enjoy the role but sometimes I like to have a couple of games off. I don't always SL late at night as I have usually got a lot of games under my belt as SL by then and dealt with all the resulting problems/joys that brings. Also at 1 or 2 in the morning, my time, my other half doesn't appreciate me bellowing "no snipers, no spec ops, how many times do I have to tell you" at the top of my voice.

                    I dislike the suggestion that IHS guys regularly start locked squads to the exclusion of others. I would suggest this is fairly rare and if I want to play a round with my IHS squadmates then I will. I have wetnursed pubbies for five or six rounds by then, I am a supporting member and part of an IHS, I can and will have whoever I want in my squads on occasion. Where does my responsibility end, should I always have to sacrifice my time to help other players. I and most other IHS players already devote a significant amount of time to new players and they are welcome in my squads 99% of the time, just once in a while I would like to play with my IHS teammates.

                    Those that complain about this are often long time players who are just too lazy to step up. It's always those that take the risk that take the most flak. I would suggest these players need to man up and step up instead of coasting in someone else's squad so they can pick up the leet kit. The 'leetest' kit in PR is probably the Sl, it certainly has the most impact. If you are lacking confidence then approach an SL that you recognise and explain that you are looking to start regularly SL'ing and would like some tips. I would happily impart whatever knowledge I've learnt to potential SL's anytime, I would gladly spend the time playing with or exchanging PM's with that person. If not me try asking someone else. Often these players already have a good base to work from and just need to take the first step. It's very rewarding when it works out and it might just give the complainers a little insight into what is involved in squad leading.

                    Also the next time someone complains that no one wants to lead think back to how you behaved in the last squad you were in. Did you follow orders? Did you take and keep the kit you were assigned? Did you use comms discipline when to told to or babble constantly for and hour and a half? Did you second guess or undermine your SL despite never having lead a squad properly in your life? Squad members have a responsibility to. Next time a new SL steps up you better make damn sure you support him or her and follow orders. I am cracking down on squad discipline these days as 0.8 has reiterated it's importance. If a new SL has a problem with a squad member I will gladly lend a hand in getting them kicked.

                    There is a vast community of 'coasters' out there that can't be bothered and just want to run around like 2 year olds, yet complain when there is no one to play mummy and daddy and give them some structure. If it wasn't for IHS players you'd hardly have any leadership at all sometimes, remember that.


                    • #11
                      Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                      Originally posted by A.WICKENS View Post
                      I SL a lot, often during the 'Euro time' whenever that is. I enjoy the role but sometimes I like to have a couple of games off. I don't always SL late at night as I have usually got a lot of games under my belt as SL by then and dealt with all the resulting problems/joys that brings. Also at 1 or 2 in the morning, my time, my other half doesn't appreciate me bellowing "no snipers, no ...There is a vast community of 'coasters' out there that can't be bothered and just want to run around like 2 year olds, yet complain when there is no one to play mummy and daddy and give them some structure. If it wasn't for IHS players you'd hardly have any leadership at all sometimes, remember that.
                      I am basically in the same boat as you wickens. I love my leet kits but am aware of the need to step up.

                      I am at fault with not stepping up more, but I feel guilty being a booting "dickhead SL" in a game. It's not real, but in someways I want it to be.

                      wreckingcrew booted me from a squad for being a liability when i was being "leet". I still agree with his actions and have learned from it, so even the "best" of can learn from an SL, even if his is being "mean".



                      • #12
                        Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                        Have we considered maybe doing more PR TGU SL courses? Perhaps that will make people more confident about SL'ing?

                        Maybe we should make a rule that says, as long as you are not doing any special squads you have to have an Officer kit and lead your squad? Might be hard to enforce, but it would root at some bad squads.

                        I'll also add that if no one steps up, the round usually goes bad for the whole team and that's no fun for anyone. It's better someone atleast tries to SL, then everyone just being in the same squad, die and spawn at base.

                        I personally SL and CO all i can, i enjoy it even though i may not be as seasoned as some. :D


                        • #13
                          Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                          I'm not a great squad lead. I wouldn't even really say I'm a good squad lead. That's why I like to keep my squads between 3 and 5 people. The effect is that every person feels a direct commitment to everybody else in the squad. Nobody can slack off. It keeps the squad much more managable, while still about as functional. It also provides a more personal sense of accomplishment.

                          Those of you who don't normally SL should try leading a half/2 thirds squad. It's a nice change of pace, and much more relaxed than the position of full SL.


                          • #14
                            Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                            Well I never got any "training" on how to SL. I just started to SL because no one else would. I love to SL when I have good players with me that follow orders or give good ideas to counter my bad ones. I hate to SL when I have people leaving my squad because a "known good SL" just opened up his squad. I have had that happen many times, so much so I do not SL much any more. I do not blame them I would too, being in one of their squads is an almost guarantee of having a good time. I just take it as a sign that I'm a bad SL or just not good enough (sniffs arm pit...or maybe I have BO). Now the funny part is that I'm soo used to having a SL kit that I miss those 3 bandages.

                            So you guys that are tired of being SL let me know. I'll once again take up my favorite kit and trusty 3 bandages and lead away. Just make sure you join my squad and impart a bit of knowledge my way.

                            Now on another note the 15th is reorganizing and training. Once we get ourselves sorted out we plan on passing on our training and expertise to others on a regular basis. More details to follow on this in the near future.

                            A good leader requires both character and strategy. If he is to be without one, let it be strategy. - General Rick Hilliar, Former Canadian Chief of Defence


                            • #15
                              Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

                              Very true, between the hours of 5:00 and 7:00 EST you can rarely see any SL's that actually do their job, thats when I step and a SL a frusterating 2 rounds, until the guys from the 10th and 6th come on. The guys in NA are just getting home from work and the guys in Europe are going to bed, leaving a very pubbie server. Yes, I have seen it more and more, people waiting for IHS members to create squads. I'm not saying there are no good pubbie or regular SLs, there are tons. But, two infantry squads actually doing something can't really win Kashan 32... unless the other team has only one.

                              As said above, try squad leading every once and a while, if you don't already, you can get used to it. I try to do it atleast a few times a week.

                              But, I don't see a solution to this...

                              So, I live with it.




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