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  • Fool's Road bridge

    The bridge on Fool's Road represents a significant grey area for TG's rules. While it is explicitly stated that "Bridges and other means of departing the area around the main may be attacked and is not considered base camping." ambushes on troops on and around the village are frequently met with frustration and anger. I understand and very much appreciate TG's tough stance on things like spawn camping and base camping for realism reasons, but this grey area needs to be explicitly dealt with.

    Today, I led a Bridge camping squad on the Militia team. We tasked ourselves with limiting the rate at which the British could bring reinforcements out of their main, with a particular focus on Supply Trucks and APCs. Over the round we were met with varying degrees of success, and the composition of the squad changed several times.

    Two issues arose.

    Late in the round, as a 2 man squad, I requesitioned a Spec Ops kit for the purpose of blowing the bridge. I succeeded in blowing the bridge, but was forced to withdraw before I could take up suitable concealment to ambush the reparing engineers. As an alternative, I flanked onto the British side of the river with the express purpose of sabotaging the repair operation. In order to do so, I had to disrupt the substantial defending forces who had taken up post there. Case in point, there was a TOW gunner sitting no more than 50 meters from the bridge who I killed. I then withdrew because an APC started towards my position. To cut to the chase, I was warned, then kicked for spawn killing without actually having a chance to withdraw. The reason given "No reason to be on the other side of the river...".

    Firstly, the TOW missile was not within the bounds of the main base, it was much closer to the bridge, and was no where near any spawning areas. Secondly, the soldier on the TOW had not just spawned, and knew full well he was in a combat zone - that's why he was on a TOW. Finally, there are plenty of good reasons to be that side of the river if you want to sabotage the bridge that are perfectly legitimate.

    But let's assume for a minute that the TOW was in main base like it always was on Seven Gates. If forces on main flags are given permission to disrupt operations outside their base with impunity, then this opens up all sorts of niggling, and unrealistic situations like the one I was exposed to, and kicked for.

    Let's go back to Seven Gates. Often on Seven Gates, I often lead an spec ops, asset hunting squad to premptively take down the fortress's perimeter defenses and rally points to make the later assault easier. I always give strict orders never to fire once inside their base, but this creates a few problems. Chinese snipers on Seven Gates absolutely love to use the high perches to maintain great fields of view over the river and River Fort - they are inside their main base often killing friendly troops while we are within 20 meters of them, but can't do anything. Additionally, by the precedents set on maps like Fools Road, we can only assume that they are not to be fired on from the outside either, as they're on a main base. I fully respect that there have to be boundries, and strict boundries at that, but they need to be intuitive, realistic and not hamper legitimate operations in an unrealistic way.

    TG needs to lay down map by map rules on where you can and can't kill people.


    Here's the second issue: entering enemy main bases. With ammo scarcer than ever on the 0.8 battlefield, new issues with base entering have arisen. The first time was on Muttrah, where US APCs are unable to resupply anywhere except MEC main. According to the TG rules, they shouldn't be there at all, but they don't have any other option. A better way of handling these matters would be not to make the bases off limits, but to make any use of weapons off limits at all. I am aware it's against the rules, but when I'm a Scout or Spec Ops at Village without any ammo, in need of ammo, I will happily sneak to the enemy's command post to resupply, but I won't shoot, even if I'm spotted (not that I ever am). I am well aware that slapping huge no go zones on the battlefield makes administrating it a lot easier, but it's out of touch with some situations in PR. Obviously if there is a problem with someone being shot in the enemy main base (or in a designated no kill zone), then that has to be dealt with (and can probably be dealt with quite quickly by checking the map to see who is in their base as happens currently, but simply kicking or banning for being there ignores the many legitimate reasons why someone might be there that aren't unrealistic (irregular units are well known for stealing enemy supplies).

    Militia maps have come a long way from being true Evolved Insurgency, with their unbreakable tanks and so on, but at their core, half their kits are still straight out of the 1940's. British still win Fool's Road just fine because of the incredibly late bleed (on Village). Clear cut boundries, that make sense, are realistic, and that don't impinge on the Militia's ability to fight an irregular battle need to be established around the British main base. Saying anywhere that side of the river is just silly because it's to easy to shut the bridge off completely if rules are that restrictive.

  • #2
    Re: Fool's Road bridge

    Originally posted by VeWt
    To cut to the chase, I was warned, then kicked for spawn killing...
    If it's a complaint about being kicked or banned, then this belongs in the "Contact an Admin" sub-forum.

    Originally posted by VeWt
    I will happily sneak to the enemy's command post to resupply...
    Remember that we're aiming for reality here, in all tactics and actions. Those 400 tickets (or whatever it is for Fools Road) we start with at the beginning of the round aren't meant to be the imaginary number we all perceive them as, they're meant to represent 400 troops waiting for you to walk up to their base so that they can turn you into a walking pencil. Just because there isn't a physical presence in the main base doesn't mean that you should be able to rearm off of a hostile CP.

    Originally posted by VeWt
    Today, I led a Bridge camping squad on the Militia team.
    Awesome tactic, very effective, very annoying to us. Just don't cross onto the British side of the bridge and you're okay. Believe me, you can do plenty of damage from the opposite side.

    Originally posted by VeWt
    TG needs to lay down map by map rules on where you can and can't kill people.
    These rules are written up somewhere, I just forgot where. Hopefully the next person to post can give you a link.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Fool's Road bridge

      I actually asked for the same rulings you are asking for(or something similar) in a sticky thread about ucbs. It was met without a somewhat firm "no".

      My understanding is that if someone is firing(this is key to understanding) out of the main, they are fair game. If a sniper is shooting out of the main, go kill him. The problem arises when you get confused who shot at you. So, he shot, she shot, blah blah blah a bunch of whining. So in the end stay away from enemy main and try not to shoot out of your own main, and there will be less problems.

      Anyways I was on the TOW and I hadn't shot one bullet or rocket. I was not engaging the enemy.

      If that part of the map was open to play without having village I imagine people would go destroy the TOW every time before it got used.



      Anyways good fights, I was the apc harassing you for most of the round.
      |TG-12th| Namebot

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      • #4
        Re: Fool's Road bridge

        Some very good points but I think the rules are quite clear when it comes to main bases. Doing as you suggest would mean A LOT more work for the admins and A LOT more complaining and whining from the players, which I don't think will happen :).

        The rules may not be perfect but that would be very hard to achieve without having a personal admin for every single player on the field, therefor they have to draw a line somewhere and I think it 's fine where it is now.
        Xfire: Iaintyourm8 | Ingame: GhostDog | Steam: Zuigmijnballen

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        • #5
          Re: Fool's Road bridge

          5. Basecamping

          Main bases: A main base is defined as a flag where the opponent has their only permanent spawn point.
          UCB: The opponents main base which cannot be captured.

          The rules regarding main bases/UCB are as follows:

          Insurgents can attack enemy main at any time using whatever tactics they want as this is a real-life tactic. Remaining rules do not apply to insurgents only.
          Main flag is completely off limits to enemy soldiers unless flag is in play. This includes spec ops and sapper squads. If the main is neutral, the attacking force does not have to withdraw and may stay to defend the flag.
          Units firing out of the main onto enemy forces may receive return fire, otherwise you are not to fire into the enemy main base to spawn kill.
          Destroying/sabotaging vehicles inside the main is prohibited. This includes but is not limited to placing mines or C4 onto vehicles or near them to prevent them from being used or destroying them.
          Access directly out of the main may not be blocked or impeded by mines, c4, or other means.
          Bridges and other means of departing the area around the main may be attacked and is not considered base camping.
          Aircraft returning to their main airfield may be engaged until they've landed.
          This covers everything IMO.




          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Fool's Road bridge

            Originally posted by Namebot View Post
            I actually asked for the same rulings you are asking for(or something similar) in a sticky thread about ucbs. It was met without a somewhat firm "no".

            My understanding is that if someone is firing(this is key to understanding) out of the main, they are fair game. If a sniper is shooting out of the main, go kill him. The problem arises when you get confused who shot at you. So, he shot, she shot, blah blah blah a bunch of whining. So in the end stay away from enemy main and try not to shoot out of your own main, and there will be less problems.
            Do not fire unless fired upon.... :\ Sticky...

            Originally posted by Namebot View Post
            Anyways I was on the TOW and I hadn't shot one bullet or rocket. I was not engaging the enemy.

            If that part of the map was open to play without having village I imagine people would go destroy the TOW every time before it got used.
            It's a really awkward and unrealistic situation though. I wanted to either C4 the truck, the APC, or kill the engineer, but to do any of those things, I needed to get past you. It would be quite unreasonable to expect that you wouldn't shoot at me once I came into your view, and it's very, very likely you'd kill me with the first shot.

            I'm strongly beginning to suspect that there is no good solution to the bridge and TOW problem. The TOW would be a big target every round if it was in limits, but then, I'm not 100% sure that's a bad thing. The unreasonably difficult to kill Militia tanks neccessitate overpowered base defenses, but not so long ago there would have been no trouble justifying Militia being able to pre-emptively deal with them if the situation allowed. As it stands, the British probably need the TOW to be semi sacred, or tanks with some repair support could simply sit in Village all game.

            Conversely, by the time Village is in play, it would be completely impossible to actually kill the TOW. I haven't actually seen Militia cap out the Brits since early 0.7, and that was on an Australian server with some very messed up teams. I think it would take an exceptionally bad BAF team to allow the Militia into the Operating Base, or even across the river in force. Maybe the TOWs should be fair game, IDK?


            Originally posted by Namebot View Post
            Anyways good fights, I was the apc harassing you for most of the round.
            Yeh man, it was absolutely great duking it out with you guys around bridge. I was pretty happy to be holding up an APC, but you kept killing one of my squad members who was absolutely adamant he could plant a mine underneath you, so that kind of made you the winner :(

            Grats on the win.

            It was actually a very good round, except for the bit where I got kicked while typing out my apology to you in the river. Oh well, no hard feelings.

            Special kudos to the BAF squad who stuck it out in the Cellar for most of the match to stall moves past Warehouse (that's my favourite tactic on BAF, but I can never manage to get left behind so that it's my squad vs the entire Militia team).


            Edit:

            This covers everything IMO.
            It doesn't define base boundries, or reasonable exceptions to those rules. There is very significant grey area on a map like Fools Road as to where the BAF base ends. The engagement took place probably more that 100 meters away from the base itself, and while I respect the judgement call of the admin at the time, I think some more thought needs to be put into where is and isn't acceptable on this map. Additionally, definitions of where is and isn't inside the main base on other maps (like Seven Gates). Are we only talking cap radiuses, or are they less tangible than that?
            (Edit 2: For the record, the TOW in question is 120 meters from the British main base flag, and 75 meters from the edge of the cap radius for the flag. The edge of the bridge is almost exactly 150 meters from the main base and 105 meters from cap radius and thus 30 meters from the TOW. It is possible to be on the British side of the river and be just under 1km (980 meters) away from the British flag or 935 meters from the cap radius.)

            I fully appreciate and agree with the hard line on spawn and base camping, but there are some situations where the line is very blurred and grey. The British main base on Fools Road is almost completely undefined.
            Last edited by VeWt; 10-31-2008, 08:02 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Fool's Road bridge

              take directly off the UCB rules thread

              Originally posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0 View Post
              Excellent question....to which there is no easy answer. If we said it was 50m away from the actual flag, then someone would stand at 51m begging to be shot at so they could return fire, or place mines and C4 51m out so they aren't baseraping, etc.

              I guess the best answer is this: If you think you're in the main, then you are. [EDIT] Please don't tell the admins that "I don't think I'm in the main" if someone accuses you of attacking the main and be about 10m away from the flag. That dog won't hunt. [/EDIT]



              The bridge is an area that, while is considered UCB, is technically not. What do we mean by that?

              The militia cannot camp the bridge, meaning they can't sit with RPGs in the hills over village and pick off the British vehicles as they cross, they can't wait to detonate C4 until the exact time a vehicle is crossing, etc. etc. They can blow it up, but they can't do that and then sit with their SVD on the hill waiting for the easy kills.

              Now, if the militia get caught on the bridge trying to C4 it and take fire, then they can return fire. They are not technically 'in the main', so that rule does not apply here.

              Hopefully that clears it up some.


              (PR .8) EDIT: The bridge on Fool's Road is now open for business. Yes, this is a rules change. Militia can do what they want to the bridge and anyone on it. British main is still subject to UCB rules, but Village and Bridge are not longer protected areas. Drive safely!
              hopefully that will clarify some things

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Fool's Road bridge

                I assume vewt has read all the ruling as I did. They do not cover every instance and are not very specific.

                My understanding about returning fire on those shooting out of the main is that if they are inside the main and purposefully seek engagement with the enemy that they become fair game. The idea being to discourage the abuse of the no attacking main flag rules, by people who would use them to their advantage. For example snipers shooting from their main into a flag in play. If their intention is to hide inside the protection of the main so that they can shoot out with impunity, they are abusing the rules. Of course intention is impossible to judge, so it works better if every one just does their best to try not to engage the enemy around either main.

                Newcomers to the server will not know this, so try to educate them as well as warning them not to do it again.
                |TG-12th| Namebot

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fool's Road bridge

                  A couple of things, but first some history.

                  If you search, you can find our original rules regarding Fools Road and specifically the areas of the map designated as UCB. It stretched in the H column of the map from the British main up to the intersection north of Village. This was our initial reaction to what we deemed to be an unfair chokepoint that the British had; the militia did not have an identical weakness to exit their main and the bridge is the only way out for British vehicles.

                  After months of playing under these rules, we came to the conclusion that we were just handicapping an already handicapped militia team. Please remember that this was when the tanks took 20 minutes to spawn in, and the British would just rush Helicopter Airbase and camp it. The militia are hard-pressed to defeat the British in fire fights at any range due to their optics. The end result: the British team won 90% of the matches on Fools Road unless their team was a complete disaster.

                  So, we looked at the rule again and decided that we would allow the bridge to be destroyed, camping, exploited in any way possible. The British can still get their forces across on the opening roll out, but after that, they need to tread lightly. This has leveled the playing field, and now the map seems pretty balanced (although the immediate tank spawn could be just as large of a contributing factor).


                  Now, on to specifics:

                  We will not be producing a copy of each map with UCB areas designated. Our reasons:
                  • Half the people that play on our server do not visit these forums, so they would never see them
                  • Increased workload on the admins. Claims of violations of these artificial perimeters would require viewing of every BR file to investigate
                  • Players would exploit these boundaries by camping immediately outside the boundary and engage enemy troops/vehicles there, leading to complaints of base camping (see my second point about increased workload)


                  The rules are pretty self-explanatory, and I don't see the point of typing out instances of what is meant by main for every map. Crossing the river to the British side of their main is violating the basecamping rule, and killing the soldier on the TOW when he was not engaging you is also in violation of that rule. The kick was the correct response to this, and a ban is probably not out of the question (although you won't be banned for this).

                  On Fools Road, you can engage the bridge and anything on it at any point without taking fire first. You can return fire on forces on the other side of the river if they engage you first. Yes, confusion about who is firing on you may be the case, but I'll be honest, if Village or the British main is not in play, I would be withdrawing to the Village for safety after destroying the bridge and not try to slug it out with the troops in the main. Why? Because when you are near the enemy main, regardless of map, you should be aware that you are very close to violating our rules. We let you get close, just don't abuse that trust.

                  I'll close with this: If you do violate a rule like this, PLEASE plead guilty to it when an admin is asking for names or assistance in finding the guilty party. I almost always either just verbally warn or only kick as a result. Rarely do I ban someone who admits to wrong-doing. However, if I have to spend my free time watching hours of a BR file to get a name, I 100% guarantee you will be banned, and it will probably be for a very long time.

                  "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fool's Road bridge

                    A lot of people are going to have different views on this subject cause each person has a different style of game play. Myself, I love ambushing but will never even set a foot close to the British village unless it is absolutely in play. I will ambush the roads to the North or to the West of the village(about halfway between village and warehouse) that way it is in no doubt to anyone considered spawn camping or whatever you would like to call it. I think setting up an ambush in these locations are more realistic cause think about how close you would be in real life to the enemies main base and you with only 5 other people, not happening. In real life they would have people on guard that would most likely see you planting C4 or mines at the distance you are when at the bridge but in game people are trying to get out the few people the game allows(not like it is a full army consisting of thousands or even hundreds of soldiers) to attack or defend CP's, not defending an UCB.
                    Plus it is just harder to ambush the enemy when you have no real clue which way their vehicles are going, you just have to take a chance you are in the right area whereas the village you know they have to come through there. What challenge is that for anybody, I am sure anybody could throw a mine or C4 down almost anywhere from bridge to the village crossroads and then hide, very good chance you are going to destroy a vehicle. Get a HAT on a hill in that area which he can shoot from a long ways off and destroy anything and everything coming out of the British main.
                    I have been in squads before that just wanted to camp at or around the bridge/village and left cause I feel like that is exactly what I am doing, CAMPING. Taking advantage of a weak point in the game. As stated, in real life this would be a spot that would already be recognized as being a potential weak spot for ambushes and fortified but the game just does not allow the man power to accommodate this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Fool's Road bridge

                      In my honest opinion Vewt you weren't striving for teamwork to begin with. You had the entire round a 3 man locked squad, you wouldn't let anyone join at the start of the round, or throughout the round because in team chat you wrote that it was "specialized" and you stayed at the bridge area the entire game.

                      Its pretty straight forward you can destroy the bridge and attack those at village, or once they leave the bridge and are on the road to village.

                      Also, there were plenty of regulars on, and admins on during the round, why didn't you ask in global chat or team chat if you had a question regarding the rules?
                      Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
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                      Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
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                      We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

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