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  • Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

    I don't quite understand why I have seen so many locked 2 man logistics squads since the release of .85, they seem to be the new CAS squads of the update, but that little rant doesn't belong here.

    What I want to see more, and what I really haven't seen is APC's acting as transports, or Mech INF units, with a SL who isn't a driver and a gunner acting as a squad and then also having the players who are not infantry still transporting other squads.

    I have seen too many locked 2 man apc squads, at least make it a 3 man squad so you can set a rally.

    But with all seriousness, APC's whether they are the btr's Bradleys, British APC's, LAV's etc, really haven't been used to the potential that they could be......now, I will say that I have not played a lot of maps, I have only played Mestia(once), Fallujah(3 times), Qwai (4times), Karbala (twice), Al Basrah (once), Jabal (once as CO), Barracuda (once as CO once for 10 minutes), Kashan (twice i think), Fools Road (a bunch) and Kozelik a bunch though i am still as lost as I was when they turned on the lights in Bi Ming.

    And Really only once did I see the APCs being used as their full potential (Al Basrah, check Katanama's AAR and Cougar's and others comments in the AAR Section).

    Now have their probably been other times when they have been used like blackhawks and Russian Transports are used on kashan, probably so, but when i have played I haven't witnessed it.

    So, what are somethings we can do to make these APC's act like transports, rather than Tanks.........


    ****W.Warehouse brought up an excellent point. Ramiel was the proving ground (IMHO) that really showed how this is possible.
    ****Also as W.Warehouse pointed out, don't confuse .8 with .85 they are 2 totally different updates to PR.
    Last edited by Delta*RandyShugart*; 02-05-2009, 02:48 PM.
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  • #2
    Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

    Short answer, Commanders/Teamspeak or people asking for transport, and then pray to hell the apc squad is using like an apc and not a tank. I don't see the point to set a ralley as an apc squad. You usually die in the apc and spawn back at main were the other apcs are? Or get shot up and have to repair.

    I have run more than a 2 man apc squad but that is usually to drive another apc or have a third person fallow around in a logi truck to make faster repairs.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

      Don't forget good old Ramiel! some of the best APC/convoys I have seen yet in .86 have been on that map, especially when run under the protection/scouting of the littlebird.

      I do the rally just in case we get blown up and there is an important objective near the rally. Sometimes spawning on a flag to attack or defend it outweighs bringing up another apc...you know how it goes...
      |TG-X|WAREHOUSE

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      • #4
        Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

        so the question we should be asking ourselves is - how to best use APCs in the squad system.

        Should a two man unit, two units in two different squads, be designated as crewmen in APCs with the mission of transport for the entire team, leaving 4 man infantry squads?

        Should the APC be attached to a squad at a SLs digression as a support asset in infantry maneuver?

        or, the option i would prefer because the loss of an APC is never acceptable in cost/benefit (ever);

        the APCs be designated to a specific squad whose only purpose is transport, and never infantry maneuver or support of?

        Originally posted by w.WAREHOUSE View Post
        Don't forget good old Ramiel! some of the best APC/convoys I have seen yet in .86 have been on that map,
        The match a few days ago when we had a 2 hmv 2 apc convoy with three squads operating was simply orgasmic. we approached the cache objective zone from the far side, unloaded. Then the APCs took up defensive positions around the perimeter of the unload zone where the RPs were located (sort of like a secured landing zone) while the Hummers moved with the infantry as support. exactly how it should be done; we didnt lose ONE ticket in completing our objective. Lost a Humvee on the way out though because for some reason we stopped in the desert to repair, giving the enemy time to catch up.
        Stay together, communicate, don't give up.

        sigpic

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        • #5
          Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

          like john said, 2 men apcs / transport squads work when you have a co or sqleaders on ts. Same for the supply truck.



          | | | |

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          • #6
            Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

            Good discussion idea.

            I can see APCs work on the insurgency maps. But how can they work on the other maps? Squads are much stationary as the time it takes to move up 2 flags in the AAS order can be quite large. At least too long for the APCs to hang around. Convoys are probably a very bad idea to do against regular armies. The next flag is often not that far away so a squad can easily walk making a APC transport squad fairly boring unless you use it as a mobile 50 cal position.

            Also, the other maps tend to have more hills and trees making it hard for the APC to know wether it is safe to drive 13 tickets around.

            I never use an APC in my infantry squads. I just cannot work with it.

            Edit; can convoys work on regular maps? Setting up an attack force to take the enemy flag, then let the APCs drive back to the previous flag to create a new attack force? On one hand it would be cool, but on the other hand if it does work regular maps might be over fast as it equals steamrolling over the enemy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

              I am one of the proponents of 2-man locked APC squads.

              Let me start out by saying that I am ALWAYS on the look out for support/transport requests, and I cannot think of a single request I have downright refused. There are not even any situations that come to mind where I was not able to fulfill a transport request because my APC was down (one of the biggest criticisms of 2-man locked APC squads). I am ALWAYS on Teamspeak when playing, as well.

              As for questions:

              Why not a mech inf squad with 4 inf and 2 crewmen? I have never seen this work. Ever. It always ends with either A) mediocre crewmen wasting the APC, B) Mediocre infantry getting the APC wasted, or C) Nothing happening because the squad is too busy organizing themselves to actually get into the fight and make a difference for their team (This is all in my experience, feel free to point out some games where a 4 inf/2 crewmen squad worked.)

              Why not attach yourself to an existing infantry squad? Several reasons. 1) Communication in such a situation is hard at best. 2) In general, fixing yourself to an infantry squad is just asking the enemy to hunt you, as you are fixed in one area. 3) If you are fixed to an infantry squad, you are nowhere near as mobile as if you are free-roaming. Free-roaming is, IMO, the best way to soften the enemy infantry (which is a large part of the APC's goal of "support infantry").

              I am a firm believer that the most effective use of APCs is as a skirmisher. Rush in, confuse/destroy/scatter enemy infantry, then rush out before they know what hit them. APCs are, IMO, simultaneously too valuable and not sturdy enough to provide direct, lasting support to infantry. To move with infantry is suicide, to stay back and support infantry is either ineffective or suicide.

              As I've said multiple times in this post, everything here is highly subjective. Feel free to offer Empirical evidence against what I have said.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                Because I am a noob at .85. I want to ask, how do you guys feel on having a logi. truck in your squad dedicated to your apc? I know it's a little off topic. But I want to know how you feel.

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                • #9
                  Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                  APCs have cannons for a reason, to shoot stuff. It isn't a bus. It also has seats for infantry, it isn't a tank.
                  |TG-12th| Namebot

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                  • #10
                    Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                    I like having 2-4 infantry around the apc to help cover the flanks as they can hear stuff outside the APC that the crew cannot. Very helpful when spandrels are lurking around in the woods. I also like the infantry because they can peak over hills for AT threats and rush targets that the apc has pinned with fire. They can also get kits from the APC such as LAT or Grenadier kits when we come across bigger threats. I suspect TeamSpeak works just as well, but if they are staying with my apc, I'd just as well have them in my squad so I can track them on my map and see who is talking.

                    On a side note: I think they are called Armored Personnel Carriers instead of "Armed" personnel carriers for a reason :)
                    |TG-X|WAREHOUSE

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                    • #11
                      Whats the greatest advantage of an apc vs infantry in a humvee, the zoom, the armour, the explosive firepower or its seating

                      Imo its just basicly a massive sniper gun /mk14 and if the infantry could go up front while the apc covers them it could work out amazing but somehow that never really happens.
                      I blame the crewmen for playing rambo instead of the relatively boring get hull down and cover an area for five minutes

                      Short distance transport, the squad should walk two or three hundred metres but from one end of kashan to the next or whatever then of course its ideal


                      Its nice to have voip contact but you can mirror another squads position without even letting them know it, thats the advantage of our minimap system.
                      Last edited by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger; 02-05-2009, 11:51 PM.


                      If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you have obviously failed to plan properly.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                        I've seen every vehicle used in every imaginable way, and used them strangely myself.

                        I agree with namebot's statement though.


                        The only thing I would say is vehicles in general need to be so much more conservative.

                        Tanks, APCs, transports, Humvees, ten seconds in and BOOM. Now I'm not completely innocent of that myself, I've had my unlucky rounds, but I also know most people just drive right into hell head first.

                        Drivers/Gunners - heres a tip - Most drivers and gunners are no good. Not terrible, and if you drive into them, you'll get shot and might die. But most are not observant or do the Driver hop out often for silence or sound measurement. You don't need to be smarter, you dont need to be quicker on the touch, you just need to be 25 seconds more patient, and take your time when necessary and learn to judge when (and where) to drive in for the attack.


                        SO this problem isn't just focused on APCs transporting, but on every vehicle doing everything.
                        ? is around the corner.
                        ? did that come from.
                        ? killed me.
                        ? Who, What, Where. All the time.
                        The Question Mark.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                          If you call him, he shall come. On kabballa I ran an apc squad, basically sticking with infantery. During the whole game only one squad asked for assistance, one time they needed ammo, the other time they needed transport, which they got.

                          Originally posted by Riffraffselbow View Post
                          I am one of the proponents of 2-man locked APC squads.

                          Let me start out by saying that I am ALWAYS on the look out for support/transport requests, and I cannot think of a single request I have downright refused. There are not even any situations that come to mind where I was not able to fulfill a transport request because my APC was down (one of the biggest criticisms of 2-man locked APC squads). I am ALWAYS on Teamspeak when playing, as well.

                          As for questions:

                          Why not a mech inf squad with 4 inf and 2 crewmen? I have never seen this work. Ever. It always ends with either A) mediocre crewmen wasting the APC, B) Mediocre infantry getting the APC wasted, or C) Nothing happening because the squad is too busy organizing themselves to actually get into the fight and make a difference for their team (This is all in my experience, feel free to point out some games where a 4 inf/2 crewmen squad worked.)

                          Why not attach yourself to an existing infantry squad? Several reasons. 1) Communication in such a situation is hard at best. 2) In general, fixing yourself to an infantry squad is just asking the enemy to hunt you, as you are fixed in one area. 3) If you are fixed to an infantry squad, you are nowhere near as mobile as if you are free-roaming. Free-roaming is, IMO, the best way to soften the enemy infantry (which is a large part of the APC's goal of "support infantry").

                          I am a firm believer that the most effective use of APCs is as a skirmisher. Rush in, confuse/destroy/scatter enemy infantry, then rush out before they know what hit them. APCs are, IMO, simultaneously too valuable and not sturdy enough to provide direct, lasting support to infantry. To move with infantry is suicide, to stay back and support infantry is either ineffective or suicide.

                          As I've said multiple times in this post, everything here is highly subjective. Feel free to offer Empirical evidence against what I have said.
                          Only because you attatch your apc to a squad does not mean you need to be in a 20m radius around said squad.
                          Pull up, shoot as long as you have stuff to shoot, when everybody is into cover, keep surpressing if the infantery has to cover open ground or the like, if not go elsewhere in a 800m radius or so.
                          As you got infantery will engage the squad you support if they need you they call you in ask for ammo/transport etc.

                          But you are right, hit and run is the best tactic with apc, for safety and because of the fact that infantery will stay hidden.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                            Originally posted by Exakter View Post
                            The only thing I would say is vehicles in general need to be so much more conservative.

                            Tanks, APCs, transports, Humvees, ten seconds in and BOOM. Now I'm not completely innocent of that myself, I've had my unlucky rounds, but I also know most people just drive right into hell head first.

                            Drivers/Gunners - heres a tip - Most drivers and gunners are no good.
                            That's the largest reason why I almost always insist on driving (when it comes to apcs/tanks). There are very few cautious drivers and very many impatient passengers/gunners.

                            Sometimes barreling right into enemy lines works well, and you can cut through causing massive amounts of chaos. More often than not though, this tactic ends in a lost asset and occasionally enough damage to justify the ticket loss.

                            Defensive positions with strong infantry support allows the crew to utilize the maximum range of the weapon on the vehicle. In my experience this tends to yield better returns on points not only for your squad but also for the squads you're supporting.

                            On most if not all maps, HAT support near the APC can be devastating. Enemy assets that are a threat to the APC generally concentrate on the APC, allowing the HAT time to get a good shot.

                            Combat Engineers and APCs go well together too... the APC can get the engies and ammo up to the target area and then cover while they mine/C4.

                            I guess in my opinion, while there's a valid argument about how they should be used to transport infantry more often... I'd settle for just seeing them stay in action longer.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Oh where oh where have you been Mr. APC

                              5 man squad

                              2x apc
                              1x logi truck

                              Dont worry im out of town but I'll be back on monday to help Taxi.
                              doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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