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  • Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

    Now, before I start let me say three things.

    First, I am one of the more vocal players on the server, and opinionated in terms of successful/proper gameplay.

    Two, I consider the average TG player to be better than your average player elsewhere.

    Three, I do not complain - I call things as I see them.


    I say that because I've recently noticed an abundance of stacking on the server, in fact most of the past week with apparently (from rumors I hear) only a few exceptions during the prime time American hours.

    Now, let me say I fully understand why folks play together. There are quite a couple good reasons.

    A) Clan or Squad mates.

    B) friends.

    C) Skilled players.

    B) simply more fun.

    Now, those reasons said, we do not need to have a team made primarily of regulars , with perhaps 2-3 newcomers fighting against a team that is made of primarily newbies with 4-5 exceptions. And YES, I do presume new faces to be new players. It may not always be right, but from my experience people pick their servers and stick with it.

    Now, in most places I wouldn't bother even making a post about this, I would just leave and find a new server. However I'm rather commited to TG for two reasons, a) I'm far too lazy to leave and build me a new network of regulars elsewhere and b) I've already paid and might as well stick it out!

    Though seriously, the TG members and admins especially talk a good game, full of how to play and play properly - no running folks over with vehicles, SL/CO authority... etc... but they often fail to balance that out in my opinion along the actual gameplay side.

    Now I realize why you guys might all want to be on the same team, but seriously, ITS ridiculous.

    I was frankly pissed off, and amazed tonight when Cougar had the nerve to say to the TF21 guys something along the lines of "Oh, finally competition". YOU WONDER why theres no competition? Look at the damn teams. 90% had TG on their names, or were in other way regulars. The folks on the other side of the team who were regulars were switching at the start of every round. This list includes TMG members, |TG| tagged members and other regulars. Just because |TG-X| or |TGXV| are on a side doesn't mean you need to be with them. Frankly I find myself switching teams to try and even them out far too often.

    Now, I see in game when someone mentions this, like last night when Paine mentioned the ridiculousness going on - on our side- he was told to stop complaining and stop whining. Both by regulars and an admin at one stage. He was also told to get with it, and SL to make a difference. LOL Paine is one of the better/ more consistent players on this server, but with him, myself, Pyro, and two others on a team made up of guys I've never seen before... theres not much any one of us could do.

    With respect, being a SL or CO does nothing, a SL or CO is merely a handyman using tools. His tools are his squads or squadmembers. Poor tools = a terrible job. I'm not the one to just willy-nilly blame everyone else unless theres a reason, and last nights problem wasn't even my team. I COULDN'T even BLAME them for sucking, they were just new. Frustrating that I had to blame the other side for stacking, because god knows they don't care.


    Let me firstly give props to the players that stuck it out.

    Garandmaster - stuck with the losing team for several rounds - mentioned the stacking even hesistantly - was rebuffed if I remember correctly.

    Paine - Same thing, poor bastard.

    Twisted_Pyro - LOL me and him were .. I don't know, just giving it a go... unsuccessfully mostly we found ourselves surrounded.

    |TG|Lt.Greenhorn - Stuck with the losing side for a couple of rounds.

    |TG-E1| UK-Warrior (might have the wrong IHS) - HE joined, gave it a go, and left - I'm propping him because he didn't switch sides.

    I won't even begin to mention the folks that were lambasting us on maps like Ramiel, or Archer, ... You guys know who you are, and you also know I'm right. And if you don't Open your Eyes.

    I often find myself as being vocal opposition in one way or another, a lot of people like things only one way, THEIR way. I, on the other hand am universally true to what I say applies to me, applies to all others. I will not treat people by varying rules according to who they are, or what squad they are in. (Differing levels of respect is entirely up to me however).


    Now, I hope this message isn't just ignored, or worse flamed right back at me. I know I have my detractors on this server, and honestly I do not care about that. I join to have fun and play a game, I like to play with those in my squad who suite my playstyle and have fun with. I don't go out to make enemies, again, I call things as I see them without trying to be rude or get myself banned.

    Yet, SOMETHING needs to be done. For a community of people who desire tactical gaming, perhaps it would be better to balance out the tacticians to both sides.

    This also applies to TS. I've for the most part stopped using it as I see the majority of folks always in one channel/team. I've spent literally hours in a Team leadership channel waiting for some other SL or heaven forbid commander join... with no such luck. And Team coordination = Too Much Chatter. They are a connected issue. With this new mumble thing I wonder if THAT will change.

    Now I waited some hours to post this after the events I've mentioned occurred, simply because I was wondering to myself whether or not it was even worthwhile posting this.

    In the end I figure one of four things will happen.

    A) To Whom this message concerns will read and maybe feel worse for wear, and reconsider or at least feel guilty.

    B) Some of the regulars will reconsider their blatant disregard for the apparent ethics of "Mature, and Team Oriented gamplay" that TG strives to stand for (Wouldn't Team refer to the SERVER as a whole, and not an individual side every game?)

    C) Admins will seek to reinforce team SKILL balancing and punish regular switchers.

    D) Nothing, and I'll have just angered/annoyed more or the same people and will just have to deal with it.

    ...

    Exakter signing Off.
    ? is around the corner.
    ? did that come from.
    ? killed me.
    ? Who, What, Where. All the time.
    The Question Mark.

  • #2
    Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

    I believe this issue has already been discussed, although you adress it again in a polite fashion and because of it, I'll let you know what I think. My opinion might appear biased now that I'm in an inhouse squad, but my opinions on stacking were the exact same before I joined up as they are now.

    Few of the inhouse squad members swap squads just because the team is losing. It's against the TG spirit and just a lame thing to do. What might happen is that certain inhouse members might try to get on the same team at the beginning of a round in order to get practice together. This sometimes means that one team has more inhouse members than another, but that isn't necesseraly something contributing to their team winning(see; truck flipping, an occurence I belive one of our inhouse squads specialise in). If you find that your opposing team has one or more inhouse squads; consider it a challenge; make your own squad and instruct your squad members well. Lay down your rules as a squad leader at the beginning of the round to avoid trouble later on; this will also help you get rid of any disobedient squad members. Leading or participating in a good squad even though the team is losing can provide some of the best PR experiences in my mind.

    That said, I'm not one of the most frequent players and the round you're talking about doesn't sound too fun. The problem of team stacking might, I suppose, occur if one of the inhouse squads has planned a training event on the TG server in advance. I'm just saying that I've never thought of "team stacking" as a problem so far because I haven't really experienced what you're describing. YES, I have seen members of a particular squad try to join the same team at the appropriate time, but this has rarely presented itself as a problem. Knowing there's good inhouse squads playing against me just makes it all the more of a challenge and a potential victory all the sweeter.

    Finally, I'd like to add that if you define whichever team has more members with the |TG| tag as "stacked", you're likely making a mistake. These days tons of people are wearing the tag, and - unfortunately - it doesn't say all that much about player abilities any longer.


    - having fun on the battlefield, the "TG way"



    'Not How Many But Where'

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

      Read the stickies

      http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...g-threads.html

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

        These threads are like a woman's period: They come around once a month and during that time no one is happy. Then it goes away, the sun comes out, birds sing, and everything is cool for 3 weeks, then hell returns again.


        Exakter, those hours that you spent waiting to post, did you consider even once doing a search on teamstacking before you decide to start a new thread? There are these things called "Stickies" at the top of this forum, and if you had looked there you would have noticed one called Tactical Gamer's Guide to Teamstacking Threads, and then you could have found one there suitable to post your opinion.

        One other question: Can someone show us admins where in BF2CC it shows a player's skill rating? Because if it's there, I'm sure we could come up with a way to autobalance teams.

        One last thing: We've tried numerous times to teamswitch people so teams are "balanced". Guess what happens? A majority of those people teamswitch back. I don't know about you, but when I get my 2 or 3 hours to play, I'm not wasting it by sitting in front of BF2CC to move players around constantly.

        Ok, let the games begin - again.

        "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

          I had a big thread posted, but removed it because I was angry and exasperated to see another of these stupid assed threads crop up. Ever heard of a search function instead of making new threads?

          Yes, I was there last night and Yes, you got raped. Hard. In the Ass. Without lube. Why? Because you were complaning BEFORE the round started. Paine was being extremely disrespectful in the way he complained in global chat about his SL. So yeah, I told him to shut up and get on with it.

          Why did you lose? Maybe you were all bitching and typing too much? Maybe you had idiot fly those choppers on Archer? Maybe we got lucky with that cache spawning near your FB, allowing us to spawn and jump you. But you want to know the real reason? Because we were organised. You have the EXACT same tools as us. TS, Voip, a CO option, use them. This "Our TS was empty" line is bull, ASK your team to get on, hell, I live in the UK, when I come on there are no people in TS, but when you ask, it starts to build up. Stop bitching and be PRO-ACTIVE. I told you that last night too. Yeah, this post seems hostile BTW, but is softer than I would expect it to be. Sick of these crap assed threads.

          Also, the Admin bashing. Do you know what they do, how much work it takes? Last night, Cougar switched all the TF21 guys to your team to help, and it did, we had an epic fight with them on OGT, and it did help. So you see, the admins are good. But they can only do so much, and when the switch players over, who switch back, its kind of hard.

          I may edit this later depending on my mood.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

            my main issue with this was the RESPONSE to those pointing out a legitimate concern.

            I think this has become such a tedious problem to you guys that the response is to ignore it and wait till it goes away.

            Yes I know the threads, I've seen one or two here, but... regardless the communal response hasn't changed much.

            Perhaps they keep popping up because there is a revolving issue, not a resolved one.
            ? is around the corner.
            ? did that come from.
            ? killed me.
            ? Who, What, Where. All the time.
            The Question Mark.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

              IMO the response was with advice, like "get on TS" and "don't be a tard and demoralise your team or SL by calling him crap"

              How to resolve it? Maybe take some of the advice? Organise? Use TS? Don't moan when you get beaten? We all get the same tools ad toys to use.

              Be a winner, not a whiney loser, everyone hates a sore loser. God, I got capped out yesterday on Kozelsk, am I crying about it? And that team had all types of guys in it. So, Exakter, what ideas do you have to sort this "problem?" Bitching and moaning about something is one thing (I will refrain from comment as to whether it is a real issue or not in the first place) but being PRO-ACTIVE is another. See, there is that word again.....

              Then again, maybe some people are just better at this game than you, but hey, it's OK, maybe your a better swimmer or something.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CAN WE FOR ONCE STOP THE ****ING B*TCHING?!!!

                First there have been those complaining about the maps on TS, now comes the first Team Stacking complaint of .85 from the member who has been complaining that the so called "Late night quality is not up to par with his standards."


                I am so sick of this petty crap, and also Exakter, I am sorry but your name doesn't ring a bell, so if i have played against you, i guess you havent' registered as a threat yet, hopefully in the near future you will. - This is me venting, don't mean to make it personal, but part of your post has already gone down that road.

                Did you play Wednesday night? For 3+ straight rounds one side that had a bunch of IHS members was dominated by a side that didn't have many TG IHS Players, but did have many TG tag wearers, tg regulars and players who i hadn't on the server athat much or at all...........things go in spurts, I was on the chinese side last night on QinLing before getting disconnected, guess what......before I got disconnected there was only one FB that was built because I didn't realize no AA spawned at the FOB so i built one..........when I returned i was put on the British Side, which had at the time only one RP set, for the entire team, and no firebases at all...........

                Like I said maps go in spurts, Ejod could have easily been gone in the US advantage, but it didn't, I haven't seen the MEC side win that round by capping Gas Station, since .85 has come out.

                I left after Qinling ended, but so what you got spanked for a few rounds one night, big deal, it happens.........does that mean that the teams are stacked 24/7 not at all..........doesn't even really hold water as to them being stacked.......maybe you should think of the "?" Marks in your sig........each map can be played differently each time, step up to command organize your team, instead of just calling the WHAMbulance.

                I was the CO for the US Team on Ramiel, I joined when the first area attack was loading up, let me tell you there was complete chaos on the US side, there were 2 fb's in place, but rallys were all over and the team wasn't acting as a whole. So as the CO i started right way with putting order into the group. Right away I told a squad to be a stryker squad, and immediately on TS I was told that it wasn't going to work..........right away, complaints, but as the CO i said "this is what we are going to do, work as a team, its how this map is won." I am not all powerful, it took 20 mins for us to get fully organized and for us to really start to move as one cohesive unit..........So don't go talking about how on Ramiel, the US team forcibly raped the insurgent team, because it wasn't like that at all.....

                Some rounds you win, some you lose.

                "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "




                **Also did you ask in game in chat maybe for the other players to hop in the leadership or coordination channels? You will see that by doing that players will join if they are registered and have access to team speak, merely waiting there because those SL's in the coordination channel will automatically know you are there isn't always the best way to go about it.
                Last edited by Delta*RandyShugart*; 02-13-2009, 12:20 PM.
                Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                Level I HazMat Technician
                NYS EMT-B
                Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                sigpic




                Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                  Originally posted by Exakter View Post
                  my main issue with this was the RESPONSE to those pointing out a legitimate concern.
                  The server has been full since .85 was released basically 24/7 i don't see how this is a legitimate concern, because there have been no Admin posts about the TG PR server being in trouble, or not being busy with players in it.

                  Originally posted by Exakter View Post
                  because I've recently noticed an abundance of stacking on the server, in fact most of the past week with apparently (from rumors I hear) only a few exceptions during the prime time American hours.

                  Question to anyone and everyone: I didn't realize rumors = automatic fact and automatic truth? When did this happen? Have I missed something over the past 29 years that I have been alive? (notice how the adjective abundance is used, because every round every day the other team which automatically has the best players in the universe on it blows one team out of the water by at least a 150+ ticket count every round)
                  Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                  Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                  Level I HazMat Technician
                  NYS EMT-B
                  Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                  sigpic




                  Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                  RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                  Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                  Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                  We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                    You'll see some harsh responses to complaints such as these, even possible admin action, for one simple reason:

                    Complaining about this in global chat is counter-productive, and it is only going to lead to more complaints from other members on both teams, which is disruptive to the server. Kicks at this point are warranted.

                    I know this is going to sound harsh, and a lot of people won't like it, but there might be some grains of truth here:

                    Each player is on equal footing with regard to the tools available. The game provides a VOIP system for squad communications. The game provides the ability for a player on each team to assume command and communicate with all squad leaders, issue orders, and place markers on the map. The game developers have tweaked the in-game communications to effectively communicate most if not all needs to the rest of the team. Tactical Gamer provides a free teamspeak server that is open to all, supporting members and non-supporting members alike, with the only requirement for it's usage being that you are registered on our web site. The admins have taken steps to provide separate channels for each team and further subdivided those into a channel specific for squad leaders and the CO, if he so wishes to participate, to communicate with one another without having any more "interference" than is required.

                    Where things fall apart usually are that some players elect, of their own free will, not to utilize these tools to their potential.

                    This is where things get touchy. You see, you're going to see arguments from players saying that just because of a tag or what have you that they are no different from other players. I'd have to agree. At the other end of the player model is just a person sitting at a computer with a mouse, keyboard, monitor, maybe a headset and microphone. It is the person at those controls that is responsible for their decision in how they wish to participate in the game, and each is looking for something out of the game that may or may not mesh with the desires of the other players on the server.

                    And this is where the harsh reality sets in. You'll see in life that some people accept responsibility for themselves and step up and try to do something to impact their lives, and you'll see a lot of others who sit around and blame everyone else for whatever predicament they find themselves in. People will either take the initiative, carp diem, or they will look to others to do it for them. Being a follower is easy, being a leader is hard work.

                    So, I have to ask, mainly because I wasn't playing last night. Was there an effort on the "bad" team last night to get organized? Did anyone suggest that all of the squad leaders who have access to teamspeak hop into the leadership channel? Did the team have a commander who took charge of his squads and the assets available to the team? Was there an effort on the US team to protect their assets and have squads work together to achieve the goals of the map, which is to destroy the enemy weapon caches? Did even one person suggest anything remotely close to being organized and working together?

                    Or, were all the players running around in an unorganized manner and just waiting for someone to step up and lead them?

                    It only takes one person to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Sure, maybe you can't get everyone into the program, but there certainly are steps you can take that would help.

                    For example, if the CO issues orders not to fly unless their is a mission, then players that don't follow those orders can be removed by the admins. Will that fix everything? No, but it sure is better than doing absolutely nothing but complain in global chat and then starting another thread about teamstacking..

                    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                      Originally posted by Exakter View Post
                      my main issue with this was the RESPONSE to those pointing out a legitimate concern.

                      I think this has become such a tedious problem to you guys that the response is to ignore it and wait till it goes away.

                      Yes I know the threads, I've seen one or two here, but... regardless the communal response hasn't changed much.

                      Perhaps they keep popping up because there is a revolving issue, not a resolved one.
                      The problem is that this issue has been discussed over and over already and the conclusion of these discussion are that there is no simple solution. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and lose a couple of rounds until the teams even out. And don't get pissed of the uneven teams, feel good about yourself instead for being one of the "non-teamstackers". It also helps if you ask politely to the opposite team if some of them could switch, preferably on TS.
                      sigpic
                      "Danger could be my middle name, but it's John..." Eddie Izzard

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                      • #12
                        Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                        Playing with public players keep things fresh. Think of all the potential within those non-tagged blue berries! And disregard the "advice" about getting them into TS, get them on Mumble instead.

                        Edit: On the other side, I am of "Late night quality" so I rarely see more than 10 |TG| wearers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                          Originally posted by Fishbone View Post
                          Playing with public players keep things fresh. Think of all the potential within those non-tagged blue berries! And disregard the "advice" about getting them into TS, get them on Mumble instead.
                          Get them in both, mumble is a WIP, I know some TG members who have been trying/using it, i haven't but TS is a staple that isn't going to be going away, you get it when you register at the forums, you have a ID name and all you need is a PW and you are good to go.......yes I think we all have a good feeling about mumble making a stronger presence but it might be good to start with the baby steps before getting on a harley davidson.
                          Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                          Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                          Level I HazMat Technician
                          NYS EMT-B
                          Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                          sigpic




                          Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                          RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                          Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                          Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                          We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                            Originally posted by Exakter View Post
                            In the end I figure one of four things will happen.

                            A) To Whom this message concerns will read and maybe feel worse for wear, and reconsider or at least feel guilty.

                            B) Some of the regulars will reconsider their blatant disregard for the apparent ethics of "Mature, and Team Oriented gamplay" that TG strives to stand for (Wouldn't Team refer to the SERVER as a whole, and not an individual side every game?)

                            C) Admins will seek to reinforce team SKILL balancing and punish regular switchers.

                            D) Nothing, and I'll have just angered/annoyed more or the same people and will just have to deal with it.

                            ...

                            Exakter signing Off.
                            I'd bet on D. But, there does seem to be at least a small amount of progress pointing this out to the rest of the world. This can be observed by the fact that this thread isn't locked... yet.

                            I've pretty much given up on trying to convince people to even out the teams. About the best you can hope for is to get a rag tag band of fools together and do as much damage as possible to the other team until you can't stand it anymore. Then it's time for a different server or a different game altogether.

                            As far as convincing the people that (unintentionally AND intentionally) cause this to happen that there is a problem, good luck. The majority of opinions on this forum are against you, and the people who experience the other side of the beatdown generally don't stick around long enough to find these posts... much less point out this problem.

                            So you're stuck with the guys that refuse to admit this happens, the one's that tell you that you're dumb/incompetent for saying the teams are stacked... or just go off on a rampage about how you mentioned the acronym "IHS" in your post about teamstacking.

                            Next thing you know, you're labeled as a troll and not invited to the christmas parties.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

                              Originally posted by Jeepo_SAS View Post
                              IMO the response was with advice, like "get on TS" and "don't be a tard and demoralise your team or SL by calling him crap"

                              How to resolve it? Maybe take some of the advice? Organise? Use TS? Don't moan when you get beaten? We all get the same tools ad toys to use.

                              Be a winner, not a whiney loser, everyone hates a sore loser.
                              Cutting out the rest. You don't play on my team much, I'm usually always leading a squad. Used to be E's Good4u or now ?'s Good4u.

                              We do fairly well, I am proactive. These are the responses I'd expect, though admittedly a bit more hostile then even I was expecting.

                              Kills/Points aside (which I usually am very high up in both), I squad lead, I command on occasion (I don't really like the PR commanding, I have to say I liked the UAV from Vanilla so I stay away here..) I think you'll find I am proactive.

                              I came here as a response to point out that the behaivor of folks - in creating the situation (thats bad.. but it happens) and then the verbal responses were much worse.


                              To Delta - perhaps we jump on at different times.. I'm usually on around 5 CNT - 12 Cnt on spurts or variations on any given day. Depends what I'm doing.

                              I say rumor - thats two days worth where my internet was disconnected due to router issues. Yet every other day I've been on its been bad.

                              Now, I understand you guys get irritated by these posts. But you don't need to jump on and attack me either, thats not a solution for all that you may try to hid them in your responses between your veiled insults or slaps.

                              Though, a good Chris Farley quote always puts me in a good mood!

                              And Teamspeak. Please, when everyone is on one team and is a regular - which was the problem no one on the other team uses teamspeak.

                              I don't care about one round, or two rounds... it happens, even if people aren't trying to stack. It bothers me when it goes on for hours. And then days. The reason why I bring this post up now, is because I feel with the resurgence of new players in .85 we have a lot of new folks joining in constantly. I've just found them consistently on the same team...

                              It's been interesting watching the SM kick - and have it affect only one team. That usually is a bit of a signal.

                              And Disposable - most of the squad leaders had never played before. Of the squad leaders I knew (before TF21 joined), there were two that were regulars. There was also a FDN clan squad. Of the regulars, one was Twisted Pyro, and the other was Garandmaster. That two out of 6. I know this because I was the commander for that round.

                              The problem isn't teamstacking of skilled vs unskilled, but regulars vs complete and utter newbs. To their credit they mostly followed orders well, but theres only so much a team of newbs can do. Even with the best Squad Leaders, or Commanders. This problem will diminish naturally in time, as these players become more used to PR and adapt to the necessary skills required. But still, to beat a rotting corpse of a horse... it still doesn't enable or allow people to simply presume the worst of people who bring up these legitimate concerns.

                              I noticed the opposing team consisted of both IHS and TG tag wearing SM's. For over 6 maps, the SMs/Regulars on my side were limited to no more than 4 or 5.


                              ----- and to jump around again... I realise that IHS or even SM are not therefore better then other players by virtue of taggage. But they should instinctively understand the rules of PR and basic tactics/skills more then folks who've never played before.

                              But, I see I will probably get no where.

                              This isn't something I saw once that irritated me and forced me to come here to post it...

                              I don't waste my time unless I see a good reason to (or am enjoying myself, and no, I don't count posting this as enjoying myself.)
                              ? is around the corner.
                              ? did that come from.
                              ? killed me.
                              ? Who, What, Where. All the time.
                              The Question Mark.

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