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  • Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

    My suggestion is simple: please don't kick SLs, or at least SLs of squads of 4 or more players.

    Usually the squad gets lost without the leader and disbands, because you all know it's hard to get good SLs.

    This really affects the team and overall gameplay more than the player himself, and if we are to encourage teamwork between squad leaders, they really need to be there.
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

    I brought this up 1 year ago, even 2 years ago. It's not going anywhere :(

    The kick script works on longest on server AND highest score = bad news for SL.
    Skud


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    • #3
      Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

      db - it's just a script that works by removing whichever non-supporting member has been on the server the longest. As far as I'm aware, it has nothing to do with player score. The script has no way of determining if you are the commander or the lowliest grunt. We've discussed using player score, but then the newest player will keep getting kicked over and over. How about we don't kick people in expensive assets? That would make all the asset whoring even worse. Our admins can't find a more fair way of doing it with the tools we have. So, Mr. Programming Manager, sir, why don't you write us a little script that will figure out who has been on the server the longest and also isn't a squad leader of at least four players and your wish will come true ;)

      We can't even figure out how to change the message you get when you get a SM kick... it says you have been kicked for TK or by an Admin!

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      • #4
        Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

        Originally posted by A_Grounded_Pilot View Post
        The script has no way of determining if you are the commander or the lowliest grunt.
        You sure that even the commander can get kicked?
        onemanwreckingcrew;: "Speed is the key!"

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        • #5
          Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

          Part of me says that's right, because squads tend to go fubar when they loose their leaders, specially if someone who's got no idea what they're doing gets promoted to SL after the kick. Also, there's nothing worse then leading your squad with precision and you get kicked...

          On the other hand, I think this would make all the 9 squads be created in less than 2 minutes, unless there is a way indeed of making only SLs with squads with 4+ not get kicked, or something like that.
          |TG-69th|Kevlar



          "Oh I know I don't think I see what I see what I'm thinking."

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          • #6
            Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

            Let me start with a disclaimer - I'm not an admin here, but I'm just trying to shed some light on the procedures on our server.

            Originally posted by Marko|BR| View Post
            You sure that even the commander can get kicked?
            I'm 99% sure. (Edit - I was wrong.) It's the same vBF2 script that is used to remove a player if they have been punished for a bunch of TKs, if they are kicked by admin, or if they have been voted off the server. The modification is that it checks how many players are on the server. If it is more than 62, it looks for the player who has been on the server the longest. If that person is a non-supporting member, that person gets removed from the server, and the following message is prompted:



            If the person who has been on the longest is a supporting member, the script finds the person who has been on next longest, and so on. It doesn't look at score or what kit you have or what position you hold with your team. The only two things that matter are supporting member status and time on the server. We haven't been able to find a way to get it to look at the other factors, such as if you are a SL, and how many people are in your squad.

            EDIT - if anybody can write a script that runs on a BF2 server and can do all of those things, please let us know.
            Last edited by A_Grounded_Pilot; 10-04-2009, 09:30 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

              Is it possible to grant temporary SM status to those leading a squad of sufficient size?

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              • #8
                Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                What if the SL has a squad of 4 or more and sucks? You know, for instance, the SL has a sniper kit, no rally, and no one else in his squad within 300m of his location? You know, he's just a refuge for the lone wolf player who shuns contact with other people and the only coordination he understands is the coordination it takes for him to pee without getting it on his shoes?

                Yeah, a silly response for sure. I apologize - no offense intended to db or anyone else who gets kicked like that. My knowledge of the system in it's current incarnation is that it has been looked at forward and backward and this is what has been deemed the fairest way to implement a system that ultimately makes people unhappy while allowing those that support the server financially to get a benefit from that support.

                "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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                • #9
                  Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                  Exactly what Disposable said. I believe at one time we had SL immunity to kicking but then you found everyone making small squads just so they wouldn't get kicked. This has been discussed at length by the admin staff and this is the best way of doing it.

                  And Grounded, that kick message is hard-coded, there is no way to change it. We have some great developers in the community that have worked on these scripts for us, it's not a matter of not being able to do it, but rather that we have decided not to.

                  The CO does not get kicked for SM, no matter how long they've been playing.

                  I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                    Originally posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0 View Post
                    What if the SL has a squad of 4 or more and sucks? You know, for instance, the SL has a sniper kit, no rally, and no one else in his squad within 300m of his location? You know, he's just a refuge for the lone wolf player who shuns contact with other people and the only coordination he understands is the coordination it takes for him to pee without getting it on his shoes?

                    Yeah, a silly response for sure. I apologize - no offense intended to db or anyone else who gets kicked like that. My knowledge of the system in it's current incarnation is that it has been looked at forward and backward and this is what has been deemed the fairest way to implement a system that ultimately makes people unhappy while allowing those that support the server financially to get a benefit from that support.
                    fair point wen i was a non sup i built my squads around the fact that i might be kicked which is the best way to sort it

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                    • #11
                      Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                      I like to appoint someone second in command. It's usually a fire-team leader, but it works well if you crash, get separated from your squad, get kicked for SM, or have important things to do (like cook dinner :D).

                      I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                        My suggestion can be done as nardini said, and I would be glad to tweak your code to enable it, if you want.

                        I understand your side, and to avoid the exploiters that will attempt a 2 man squad or even 4 man squad, you could make it for SLs of full squads then. If a loser like that can get 6 players in his squad, their squad members are really dumb, he won't get kicked, but the squad members definitely will, and the moment he has 5 guys it won't be long he will be gone.

                        My thing about this is that TG loses more than it gains imo. The strong thing about TG is that you can get good SLs on both teams very regularly, and by just having that, you get a superior gameplay experience for the grunts and specially for the SLs that want to work on cooperation with other SLs. The moment you break that link it really affects the experience.

                        That's all I have to say, and I imagine some of you might even agree with that but are tied with all the other questions that get brought up. Oh well, it's only my humble attempt to get you to rethink it, and I will respect your decision.
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                          My main problem with SM kicks: its very hard to get a group of players into TG server who like to play together and ARE NOT supporting members, and keep them there. It's the #1 reason I dont like playing at TG... sure its a great place to show people how PR is meant to be played, that is if your PAYING :P

                          Your current SM kick script is a system that effectively promotes the players with the biggest pocketbooks, NOT necessarily promoting the ones with good teamwork.

                          I know there is quite a few players that have just bought a supporting membership to avoid the kick, but do very little to support and promote the community.

                          I think the team stack issues on the server are mostly due to SM kick from what I can tell. When one team gets all their decent squad leaders kicked, and they try to get back in but the server is full. And the new supporting members that are the ones kicking people and joining the server, they're very likely to switch to the team their friends are on (ie the WINNING team now that all the good players got kicked)

                          Its happened to me so many times on TG I don't really look forward to playing on a full night. We get 2 good teams together, everyone is having good time and things are balanced. Then some more supporting members join and soon one team becomes lopsided, I start losing squad leaders left and right and soon they're replaced with other guys who dont know whats going on (and often times) dont really want to cooperate. Then I'm kicked from the server, and really have a hard time joining back in, and don't even really feel welcome after getting kicked. That doesn't feel like a fair system to me, especially for new guys in my squad who I was training or showing the game, it shows them a prety negative view on this community I think.


                          The only reason I've not bought a Supporting Membership at TG is because I think this system is totally disgusting and goes against teamwork and an open community. If this system was dropped or changed I would get a supporting membership right away, but I DO NOT support a system like this and refuse to pay money to get a "spot" on the server.

                          Yes I know a system like this "pays the bills", but why is TG the ONLY server that has this kind of method? Can't TG make-do with players getting a supporting membership with the legitimate reason that they truly want to support the community, like the rest of the PR communities? Why is TG so insecure that they think the only way they can get supporting members if they bribe players with incentive like always have a spot on the server? I just find it weird that TG is the only one with this system among all the other servers, its my only real complaint against this community.


                          Sorry if I sound like an ******* about this but I've been going on about this for long time now :P

                          I think this system was okay 3 years ago, when TG PR was just starting out and there was probably legitimate concern on the financial viability of a PR server. But I think now that PR is so successful, you got alot more supporting members than required to meet the minimum required to run the server.

                          I agree with db, and he even offered to write the script for you. Allow squad leaders with 4+ (or 6) players not to be kicked, to increase likelihood that these guys will stay on server longer, and maybe they'd even buy supporting membership because of having a good experience rather than a bad one (getting kicked). I know I would get one if this was changed.

                          You could even make this change unannounced, and remove this thread, so that no one has to know that squad leaders with big squads dont get kicked, so players dont exploit it.

                          Just my 2 cents....

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                          • #14
                            Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                            Thats the thing you have to realize fuzz: regardless of whether or not players buy SM to support PR or not, their money actually goes to supporting the entire community. When you get your SM, it doesnt just get channeled to the game which you take part in. At count, TG runs servers for well over 15 games and provides support to members who play in so many others that it would take me a month to track it all down. Not to mention the fact that the forums alone suck bandwidth faster than a 50 horsepower vacuum.

                            Its really beside the point though. This is an issue that has been discussed innumerable times. Call it a "disgusting system" as much as you want, but the fact remains that people have searched high and low for a solution to this particular problem and the system in place is the best alternative right now to kicking for points. Even if we did find a way to keep SLs and COs and people using assets from getting kicked, people would still find a reason to complain or shirk and abuse the system. And yes, the system is orchestrated to reward those people who have supporting memberships, and for good reason. Regardless of their intentions, they ARE supporting the community in some fashion.

                            So sure, let db write the script, and if it works alongside our existing system, I'd be all for implementing it fully. But right now, until we can see some proven results, well, i think you get my point.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Please revise supporter kick for Squad Leaders

                              Originally posted by fuzzhead View Post
                              Your current SM kick script is a system that effectively promotes the players with the biggest pocketbooks
                              I can understand the OPs point, and it's probably something worth looking into. But frankly, 22¢ a day ? Deep pocket book ? Just look at the average gameplay time the kicked players have enjoyed when, and only when, a SM joins a full server. Give me a break.

                              edit: bad math.

                              DB
                              Last edited by Dick Blonov; 10-04-2009, 07:34 PM.

                              «That looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.» Donrhos

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