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Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

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  • Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

    We all know that Civis are under-appreciated meat bags that people like to shoot for giggles, because apparently making someone wait 2 minutes to respawn is the epitome of funny. But here, we gotta show respect to the guy with no gun. He heals you when you need a bandaid. He has rope when you wanna jump off a building into an enemy Stryker. He hits you in the face with rocks when you think it would be funny. But the Blufor doesn't feel that way, they see teh Civi and want to arrest him for being nice, they shoot him when he has his pack of "Dora The Explorer" bandaids out.

    So what we are gonna do, is throw out suggestions of how we can make the Civi a class where you can skip across the jolly meadow without a care in the world.

    1.) Reduce the respawn time for the Civi(If he gets shot.) If he is arrested, then the 3-minute respawn time is justifiable.


    2.) Make the punishments for shooting a Civilian outside the ROE harsher. What I would suggest is adding 1-ticket to the insurgent team for every civilian killed(To simulate real-life. Someone joins the insurgency for the wrongful killing of a loved one.) Every 10 tickets added means another cache must be destroyed till the Blufor needs to destroy all the caches in the area(12.) If they have leftover tickets after the caches are destroyed then a heavy-bleed begins(2tps.)


    3.)Make the civilian a pick-up kit, and having them completely untouchable (They aren't allowed to be shot at all. They still may be arrested.)


    Now here's where you come in. Throw in your suggestions, post your ideas. Let your opinion be heard.


  • #2
    Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

    #2 is flawed, as tickets don't mean anything to the insurgent team. Adding 1 to infinity is still infinity.

    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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    • #3
      Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

      #2 would be the coolest of them all however dispo is right. Tickets dont mean jack to the ins. So i am goin with #1.
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      • #4
        Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

        I meant to say the tickets are used as a placeholder thingy for the caches. Every 10 civilians that get killed outside the ROE means another cache has to be destroyed by the Blufor. I don't means tickets should be used in the conventional way. They are just there for a placeholder for the caches. Of course after 20 civis are killed, the punishment for killing them goes out the door. I'm still working out the kinks here fellas ;)

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        • #5
          Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

          See the seperating civilian from collaborator link in my sig.

          Short version:
          Civi is never eligible to be killed while staying away from caches and other insurgents. Limited to two kits (possibly more as a pickup kit), they are intel gatherers. They get rocks to be an annoyance.

          Collaborator is the insurgent support class with only rocks and a single deterrent moltov for offense. They are always eligible for ROE but look like civilians so should not be engaged unless confirmed to be a collaborator. They are limited to one per squad to avoid herds.

          Both classes need to not have a long respawn time because there is no possibility of human shield crap. Either they are away from the other insurgents (and can be arrested easily) or they are collaborators and can be shot at any time. The classes would actually be used.
          |TG-6th|Snooggums

          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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          • #6
            Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

            Originally posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0 View Post
            #2 is flawed, as tickets don't mean anything to the insurgent team. Adding 1 to infinity is still infinity.
            I thought insurgents start with 100 tickets? And each cache is worth 10 tickets. So don't tickets mean something to insurgents?

            I like number 2 a lot, and I remember it being suggested on he realitymod forums before. A realistic explanation would be that the killing of an "innocent" family member by coalition troops would encourage folks to join the insurgency.

            If it were to be implemented, the Insurgent ticket count would look like
            Total tickets = 100 - # of caches destroyed * 10 + # of Civilians killed by Bluefor outside ROE

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            • #7
              Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

              A little from the PR manual on punishment for killing a civi out of ROE conditions.

              The insurgent players can choose a Collaborator kit which does not contain any weapons (except for stones). They can call in mortar strikes with their cellphones when a commander is present (see chapter #6). Civilians take 2 minutes to respawn when they are killed or arrested (temporary spawn time penalties still apply).

              If you shoot civilians, you will face several penalties:
              - After your next death you will respawn 120 seconds later per civilian shot (stacks up to 5 minutes additional delay)
              - You will not be able to request any limited kits for 10 minutes
              - Your score is reduced to 0 and the kill will not be listed on the scoreboard
              - Your team loses 10 intelligence points

              You can arrest civilians (and other insurgents) with the restrainer which replaces the knife on insurgency maps. The Shotgun with breaching slugs can also be used to arrest any insurgents. Civilians that suicide are counted as arrested and give bonus IP to the coalition team.

              Civilians may be run over with a vehicle or shot while using vehicles, ladders or ropes without any penalty or bonus. There is also no penalty for shooting them if they used a weapon, vehicle or their medical equipment in the last 60 seconds.
              Killing 10 civilians mean that your team will have to destroy an 11th cache that might make people think twice. But I see some problems with this. first of all I don't think (Speculating here) that the system goes by tickets. my reason is that in a previous version you could have say 11 tickets left as an insurgent (can't remember what version where hideouts generated tickets) and the game was still over when BLUFOR got the 10th cache. If this is the case they would have to make a new code for insurgency to implement this.
              My second reason for not liking this is a gameplay decision. I have been in different situations where a civilian posed a direct threat to my squad. In these situations I have killed the civilian. An example was an insurgent standing next to a red car on the road that I was going down. he was hovering around the door like he was about to get in. I figure this might be a trap so I wait a bit and then when I am too close for comfort and he hadn't moved yet I killed him. Turned out the car wasn't a bombcar but I will probably be doing the same thing again.
              If people are becoming so bored when playing that they have to resort to this immature behaviour I will give them something to do, call it a project. The project is "appeal a ban". - Wicks



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              • #8
                Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                The extra caches would be like the old extra insurgent tickets for civi kills, just making the round even less structured.
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                  The problem with civis is that no matter what you do, people are going to shoot them because there just isn't a strong enough penalty, short of being automatically kicked or banned from the server. I think that they should just have a gun and a medic bag, be called medics and be done with it. That, or just get rid of the class and make hideouts heal insurgents when they are within 5m of one to simulate getting bandaged up.

                  As far as adding additional caches, please understand how the game works first: All cache locations are predetermined before the round starts and the game only actually spawns them per the current logic system. It does not dynamically locate and then spawn them during the round. Also, the logic in the game dictates that 10 caches need to be destroyed for a BluFor victory. That limit cannot be changed dynamically to infinity, otherwise why not have the entire insurgent team spawn as civis to get killed, making their cache count balloon to some ridiculous number? And to continue this part of the discussion just borders on the absurd because adding caches is not going to happen.

                  "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                    Originally posted by Katanama View Post
                    My second reason for not liking this is a gameplay decision. I have been in different situations where a civilian posed a direct threat to my squad. In these situations I have killed the civilian. An example was an insurgent standing next to a red car on the road that I was going down. he was hovering around the door like he was about to get in. I figure this might be a trap so I wait a bit and then when I am too close for comfort and he hadn't moved yet I killed him. Turned out the car wasn't a bombcar but I will probably be doing the same thing again.
                    You should have either:
                    Blown up the car
                    Had someone aim at the passenger seat to shoot him when he got in
                    Had the rifleman specialist shoot him with the breaching shotgun (counts as arresting)
                    Moved somewhere else

                    The point of the civilian/collaborator is to avoid engagement. You are supposed to be paranoid that he might not be a civilian, so you either arrest or disengage.
                    Last edited by snooggums; 10-26-2009, 09:44 AM. Reason: pruned quote
                    |TG-6th|Snooggums

                    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                      Snoog the part I left out was that we were about 50m from a cache so I didn't have the extra manpower to secure (directly translated from danish so don't know if it makes sense) the civi we were engaged by the enemy from further down the street and I wanted to advance to contact so I killed him. I my world he doesn't count as a civi if he is running around in the middle of a gunfight which is why I like your suggestion on the PR forum.
                      If people are becoming so bored when playing that they have to resort to this immature behaviour I will give them something to do, call it a project. The project is "appeal a ban". - Wicks



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                      • #12
                        Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                        I think the civilians job outside of healing/throwing rope is to cause hesitation amongst the Blufor. Make them wonder if it's a civilian or not. So if the penalty isn't great enough, then the hesitation is nearly nonexistent, or it's too harsh, then the civilian is too powerful and could harm gameplay. The discussion here, should be the perfect balance.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                          Originally posted by Katanama View Post
                          An example was an insurgent standing next to a red car on the road that I was going down. he was hovering around the door like he was about to get in. I figure this might be a trap so I wait a bit and then when I am too close for comfort and he hadn't moved yet I killed him. Turned out the car wasn't a bombcar but I will probably be doing the same thing again.
                          I would have shot him, too.



                          The civilian/collaborator just doesn't work. Their job has been replaced by adding the intelligence gathering system of placing waypoints on the map and it is a much better metaphor for what they do, which is to relay information. Also, waypoints can't get shot.

                          Give a rope to one of the insurgent kits. Let insurgents get healed somewhere on the map (either near the hideout, inside the mosque or maybe inside a civi car - all of which have real-life applications and examples abound), and be done with it.

                          "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                            Originally posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0 View Post
                            The civilian/collaborator just doesn't work. Their job has been replaced by adding the intelligence gathering system of placing waypoints on the map and it is a much better metaphor for what they do, which is to relay information. Also, waypoints can't get shot.

                            Give a rope to one of the insurgent kits. Let insurgents get healed somewhere on the map (either near the hideout, inside the mosque or maybe inside a civi car - all of which have real-life applications and examples abound), and be done with it.
                            I completely agree that the current and past implementations haven't worked, and it is due to trying to have the one class fit the role of both an informant and a collaborator. If you haven't already check out my suggestion (yeah it's fairly long because it includes the reasons behind the changes) as it addresses all of the complaints of the previous implementations and I can clarify if anyone sees any holes in it.
                            |TG-6th|Snooggums

                            Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Civilian Collaborators: Reworking the System.

                              -1 ticket to the Blufor team for every civilian shot by a weapon other than a shotgun.

                              +plus spawn time by 30 seconds for every civilian that is shot and killed by blufor soldier.

                              - vulnerable to enemy gunfire for 30 seconds after reviving/healing someone.

                              - still vulnerable to enemy gunfire if they pickup a weapons kit.

                              - Remove the Collaborator option altogether.

                              ***Take out the Collaborator option altogether, and replace it with the Pregnant suicide bomber. 2 kills for the price of one.
                              - MSRP may differ in different provinces and in Syria. May cause drowsiness and numbness in fingers. Initial trials proved that when standing in the vicinity of 30 meters of the blast radius nearby volunteers still experienced injury/dizziness. Not to be used/combined with Molotov cocktails, or grenade traps. User's family is not responsible for harm done to fellow insurgents. Remember when driving buckle your safety belt.
                              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
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