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The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

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  • The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

    There are several ways to look at realism in PR.

    Realism of weapons systems - the replication of weapons in the game that reflects as accurate as possible the item without regard to how it will play in the game within the limits of the engine, map and all other factors.

    Realism of the game engine - the ability of the engine to support life like warfare. PR/BF2 is generally a great game of capture the flag, other than insurgent mode.

    Realism of game play - Here at TG we strive for this over all other things. I think this is an attempt to make game play realistic within the confines of the other 2 items listed above.

    Considering all of these are different, yet all intertwined I wanted to get the community opinion on the scoped SAW / scoped machine gun. We all know it is devastating when you are on the receiving end. Is it too much firepower with too much accuracy - a high powered sniper weapon? Or is it a realistic weapon portrayal that is fairly rendered in the game.

    One can argue either side.

    On one hand, if they have them in real life, why not in PR? The battlefield is a dangerous place, so just make sure you understand it's power and accuracy and deal with it. In the right hands it is deadly. In some hands (like mine) not so much as I can't shoot anyway.

    On the other hand, in some instances, game play and PR realism suffer if you have a situation that the SAW overpowers everything in sight in the proper hands. It isn't fair to have insurgents running the map with 2 stolen SAWs, basically ruining the chances of the other team. May be fair that they got the stolen SAWs by better play, nevertheless it changes the game to be rather unbalanced - not fun or realistic.

    An interesting debate. Paintscratcher and I were discussing it yesterday after having some SAW encounters. I was interested in the community opinion. I think this was discussed before, but it is still interesting to me.

    T
    67
    The scoped machinegun is great. It is designed to be realistic, so what is the problem?
    44.78%
    30
    The scoped machinegun is terrible. It is too good for the game engine and messes up the game play.
    23.88%
    16
    I am not sure. Sometimes I love it, sometimes I hate it.
    31.34%
    21
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

    Meh, it's not hard to avoid or counter a SAW. I find its high power to be highly exaggerated. A SAW gives away your position, makes a lot of noise and if not covered by its squad can easily be flanked.

    I'd like to see the scoped SAW to be replaced by the ironsight variant on the spawn screen which would lead to slightly less of this 'sniping' and a bit more for supression on long range.

    Originally posted by O=T-M-A-N=O View Post
    On the other hand, in some instances, game play and PR realism suffer if you have a situation that the SAW overpowers everything in sight in the proper hands. It isn't fair to have insurgents running the map with 2 stolen SAWs, basically ruining the chances of the other team. May be fair that they got the stolen SAWs by better play, nevertheless it changes the game to be rather unbalanced - not fun or realistic.
    Not a problem with the SAW, much more of a problem with Insurgency and kits in this gamemode. You literally get US squads on the Insurgent/Taliban side which is ridiculous.

    On top of that, if you get dominated by 2 SAWs; you're doing something wrong. Especially as BLUFOR as you are mostly spoilt with big toys and weapons on these maps.

    |TG-X| Brummy

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    • #3
      Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

      Originally posted by Brummy View Post
      Meh, it's not hard to avoid or counter a SAW. I find its high power to be highly exaggerated. A SAW gives away your position, makes a lot of noise and if not covered by its squad can easily be flanked.
      My sentiments exactly. Yes, if you get caught in the sights of one of these weapons, you are likely going to be re-spawning shortly. The solution is... don't get caught. Use cover, flank the enemy, and attack from the blind side. The Scoped Automatic Rifleman, while deadly, has a very limited firing arc while scoped.

      With all of that said, nothing is perfect, and I would be interested to see how the balance would be affected by making some small changes to the deviation on the Automatic Rifleman weapons. Currently, they are almost perfectly accurate out to 400m. I would like to see their accuracy reduced to 300m. The idea being that if you are shooting at a target beyond 300m, you will be able to hit the target faster with a Designated Marksman rifle than with an Automatic Rifleman.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

        The LMGs are overpowered in the 'weapon tree' as it were, before the inevitable backlash from the SAW lovers let me explain:-

        - Deviation, Rate of Fire (ROF) and CQB.

        Basically the LMG hammers people in CQB. The assault rifle is often limited to a couple of 3 round bursts once a CQB encounter starts with an LMG carrying opponent. This hampers the assault rifle carrying player as deviation is exaggerated for them and there are fewer rounds going out, worse still if you are, god forbid, trying to aim. However if you are able to unload 30 to 50 rounds in a few seconds then deviation is your friend, it allows you to paint the whole area with lead and have a massive cone of fire, all of it effectively saturated. You want realism, try humping up 4 flights of stairs with a PKM and a full combat load of ammo, doubt you'd be ramboing anyone if you made it all the way up.

        Now deviation is there to simulate many things, fatigue, movement etc. It does restrict the rifleman carrying the comparatively mobile assault rifle. However, it has little negative impact on the LMG carrying player, despite the fact that he is carrying a much heavier weapon with, potentially, a 200 round box of ammo. This is clearly wrong.

        - The LMG also is extremely effective at long range, disproportionately so. Who hasn't heard of the SAW autosniper. Who hasn't tapped fire a couple of times to pull off a first or second headshot on a sniper or marksman who clearly has the drop on you.

        - Therefore the LMG is effectively dominant in several arenas, short, medium and long range. This is wrong, unrealistic and more to the point it unbalances gameplay.

        - The playerbase is always a good measure of a weapons status, not in what they say so much but in their behaviour. Watch the server, see what kits people pick up, AK74SU, shotguns and LMG's etc. If a weapon has a general advantage over others then players will find out, they will find out quick and they will use it to get kills. This is a rule of the interwebs. I have seen whole squads of players carrying LMG's, six players including the SL, how ridiculous is that.

        - The scope actually prevents the use of the weapon in a suppression mode as it is just too easy to get the kills with it.

        - The availability of them on some maps, due to kits staying around for 5 minutes means some rounds are near enough ruined by half a team picking them up.


        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

          The LMG does do wonders in CQB, however most of the time you have one in your squad as well. I don't get what the problem is. As an infantry squad you mostly move as a unit with various assault rifles and other weapons.

          You describe the LMG in a way that every encounter is a 1v1. When you get to that situation in PR then you are screwed; yes, but isn't it the whole point to stay together as a squad? 5 assault rifles and 1 LMG should easily take down one SAW gunner. I have done my bit of lonewolfing, and with a SAW it's so easy to kill loners or 2 guys together, but when you come face to face to a good full infantry squad I highly doubt the survival chances.

          At this moment the SAW is ridiculous at long range compared to other weapons, but of course Mr Sniper or Marksman is gonna get killed if you stand on top of the tallest building, highest hill or right in the open.

          |TG-X| Brummy

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

            The whole 'you need to flank' 'you're doing it wrong' argument is understandable but I find it simplistic and a little generic. A lot of us know how to flank, move and work round them. I am more concerned with the use of the LMG as an uber assault rifle, that misuse is due to it's fairly apparent superiority to the assault rifle in almost all arenas, which is wrong and unrealistic. Even if this was not the case it often ruins gameplay.

            I have no problem taking out LMG's, one round of Jabal I took out 4 LMG's lone wolves in the space of about 300 yards (brag over). My point is, it's not always difficult, I don't like the fact that I have to do it because the weapon encourages that kind of kill whore play. It's not used enough for proper suppression and movement, actual tactics. It is used as an auto sniper and a room clearing broom.


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            • #7
              Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

              Limited firing arc in deployed mode can be worked around by having adjustable DPI on your mouse, done it myself. Scope in adjust DPI, drop it down, scope out, get up, move.


              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                Well yes, I agree that the LMG is often abused as an automatic sniper or super assault rifle, but what are you gonna do? I think that removing the scoped kit from the spawn screen and move it to the right-click request might help a bit.

                |TG-X| Brummy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                  Agreed, why not try removing the scoped option altogether, to hell with the availability in rl. Lets force it into a suppression weapon that encourages, nay requires more teamwork, i.e. a spotter or an SL actually designating fields of fire etc.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                    yes the saw is powerful, which is why when one is firing near me I'm not going to break cover

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                      It's good, I only have a few problems with it.

                      1) Move it to requestable, make ironsight version as spawn kit. I still think the scoped one should be available, just in smaller numbers (by making it crate-only).

                      2) Decrease the maximum deviation of assault rifles ever so slightly to make it a bit more competitive in these situations. As I see it now, it's very hard to fight back from the longer ranges because of it's extreme power, and being able to have two guys ready just out of the SAW's FOV, and take him out/make him retreat with some volley-fire tactics.

                      3) Possibly attempt, in some form, to represent the SAW's bulkier form in CQB. It should still be pretty deadly when used properly, but be a bit 'heftier' to move around with. My thought is to have the player move significantly slower when sighted in, and make the recoil when unsighted very high. I think that would help to give assault rifles a bit more nimble feel, making the preferred tactic for CQC being to file in Rifleman, who would start the fight and then bring in the assault rifle for the added power, once he's got some wiggle room with rifles already keeping the enemy busy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                        this thread is hilarious on so many different levels! lmao

                        i'll put this back on track:
                        i think the real question here is 'does the current deviation and ridiculous gameplay mechanics of the saw coincide with the realism goals of the developers?'

                        3 good choices in the OP

                        my argument, which i've stated before: unfortunately the developers have apparently chosen realistic weapons systems rather than realistic game play, despite the limitations of the engine and the player base.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                          Seal I am unsure if anything I have said is hilarious but whatever. My main thrust as it were is that you cannot handicap some weapons systems and make one 'realistic' (which I still dispute), particularly in the context of the PR game world which seems to be the general point you are also making.

                          I do get tired of being told "you are doing it wrong" when faced with pogoing, jack in the box kill whores who exploit the game engine flaws to rack up kills they simply cant do otherwise through tactics, movement or basic ability with a standard rifle. It is very hard to get a true read in these type of votes (despite some rational responses here) as you always get the don't take my 'pwn cannon' away votes from a certain type of player.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                            Originally posted by CoronadoSeal View Post
                            my argument, which i've stated before: unfortunately the developers have apparently chosen realistic weapons systems rather than realistic game play, despite the limitations of the engine and the player base.
                            I've got to agree with this one. Is the SAW a more accurate, faster-firing, "better" weapon than the M16? Of course it is, I remember reading a book on Fallujah where the author (a Marine) had his squad grab extra SAWs because of the much greater firepower they had compared with the M16. It also weighs a hell of allot and is very cumbersome, however. In PR you aren't bogged down by the weight of the gun, and when maneuvering close-quarters you aren't bumping your huge gun on doorways and stairs trying to get a shot off.

                            There is a balance between realism and gameplay which the developers are striving for. It seems that they have chosen to favor realism over gameplay for certain game mechanics. The scoped SAW, the ridiculous JDAMs on the jets that can blow up troops inside any structure, etc were all were originally nerfed in favor of gameplay (i.e in earlier versions they weren't as good) and then brought to more "realistic" levels.

                            Is it difficult to kill a SAW player? No, but that's not what this thread is about. The fact of the matter is that it's a much better weapons in-game than almost every other rifle, and that unbalances the game. Should they be toned down a bit for gameplay? Yes, IMO.

                            I didn't join a squad once and this guy named Nardini took me into the back room and beat me with a sock of oranges.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Scoped Machine-gun - What is your opinion?

                              I don't think we should "mould" the weapon to fit the game.....make the weapons as real as possible and deal with them.....


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