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  • Rules Clarification

    I've had some trouble with understanding the rules in some recent nights, leading to some confusion for both teams. I thought bringing this to the forums would be the best place to get this sorted out.

    Since tonight's game will be freshest in other's minds, I'll use Yamalia for all examples. All this contention centered around the last canadian flag, Canadian Objective.

    So let's start with the intent of the rule, I understand it as a way to stop main base rape / main base camping, this from some of the wording in that (Rule 4) article. This would allow the enemy team more space to get out of their main and into the real fight, the contested flags.

    My first question is the definition of a main base. The rules say
    Main bases are locations where a team has permanent spawns for infantry and/or vehicles, and are off limits to attack except as noted below.
    So this would mean that Canadian Objective can be in play at any point in the game because there are no infantry or vehicle spawns there. That all happens at "Deployment Area." My understanding is that Canadian Objective when attacked, affects the ability to spawn at the main, which is located some distance away (as with Dylym Village on Fool's Road). That would mean as per the intention of the rule, it would be fine to attack Canadian Objective at any point in time. Is this reasoning incorrect?

    So let's say then that for purposes of examining the rule, Canadian Objective does in fact fall under the jurisdiction of the "main base rule," as the Canadians insisted tonight:

    4a. Main bases may not be fired in to nor out of unless and until the last flag for a team is in play (marked with the orange attack marker). Exception: Players may enter the enemy main for attack or capture purposes when the flag in play immediately prior to the main base flag is neutral.
    Looking at this I first think, okay we may not engage Canadian Objective, nor be fired upon from it, until it has an attack marker over it. Then the exception comes into play, and really muddies the water. So when the flag before is neutral (for us, Mike) we may then enter Canadian Objective for purposes of attack / capture, though we may still not fire INTO it. So I would assume that "purposes of attack / capture" mean that we are free to engage all enemies inside the main base once we get inside.

    So in the situation where Mike is neutral, the following, per the rules, is the logical scenario:
    -APCs may not fire into Canadian Objective on forces. Unless APCs are moving to go into Canadian Objective. Canadians may not fire upon APCs moving into Canadian Objective until the APC has entered cap radius. If APCs are engaged before they enter the Canadian Objective they have the right to take cover and return fire. Since they had the intention of entering Canadian Objective they are not "firing into a main" they are "returning fire in self defense." Now, if the APCs was to turn around and withdraw from moving towards Canadian Objective, and decide to leave, they may not be fired upon because the engagement has ended, and that would qualify as shooting out of a main.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: Rules Clarification



    The above screen shot should help out with your point. I was going to bring up a similar point, but I did it mostly in rage after the game so I deleted my thread.
    Attached Files

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    • #3
      Re: Rules Clarification

      I'd have thought seeing as the flag is some distance away from the actual main where stuff spawns it's just another flag.

      afaik with the layout of yamilia, once the canadian objective flag is taken for the first time everything spawns at the deployment area, including permanent rally points for the canadians. which would mean that even if the canadian obj was taken they'd still be a place to spawn.

      hence i don't think canadian objective is considered a main since there are no permanent vehicles spawns there or infantry spawns (the para drop doesn't really count). Unlike flags such as airfield on silent eagle where despite the US having an 'uncap' in A8 the airfield still spawns the majority of their larger vehicles and houses the command post etc (which itself should imo denote the main base the fact the commander works there)

      still don't take my word as gospel, just my interpretation of the rules and the situation. Unfortunately it's damn hard i think for that rule to cover every single little difference in flag and base layout per map, but it's easily understandable to get the general point across
      AnimalMother
      Ex TG-31st LR
      "Is it the 31st policy to have hott women as their avatars? Because if so that's a pretty baddass policy." - Pvt. brokeback
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      • #4
        Re: Rules Clarification

        Originally posted by charcoaldabs View Post
        ISo let's start with the intent of the rule, I understand it as a way to stop main base rape / main base camping, this from some of the wording in that (Rule 4) article. This would allow the enemy team more space to get out of their main and into the real fight, the contested flags.
        ^^
        This paragraph is the important part. Canadian Objective is not the main base, so you can enter it like you can Dylym Village and as the Russian side shoot soldiers and vehicles at the Canadian Objective flag at any time but you need to be careful about camping the exits of Deployment Area. If Russia is on Canadian Objective before the flag is in play it can easily create a situation that can cause or create the appearance of camping the exits from the deployment due to the long view distance of the map and the flat terrain in that area.
        Last edited by snooggums; 07-27-2010, 01:08 PM.
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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        • #5
          Re: Rules Clarification

          Originally posted by AnimalMother View Post
          Unlike flags such as airfield on silent eagle where despite the US having an 'uncap' in A8 the airfield still spawns the majority of their larger vehicles and houses the command post etc (which itself should imo denote the main base the fact the commander works there)
          Silent Eagle has two mains for each team, one that spawns tanks/APCs and one that has an airfield and a flag.
          |TG-6th|Snooggums

          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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          • #6
            Re: Rules Clarification

            Main bases are locations where a team has permanent spawns for infantry and/or vehicles...
            As per the rule above it should be evident that Canadian Objective is NOT a main base, as it has no permanent spawns for infantry or vehicles. Whether or not a flag affects the ability to spawn at the main base does not affect the status of the rules here.

            Anyone claiming that the Can. Obj. was a main base was mistaken. :)

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            • #7
              Re: Rules Clarification

              I feel like I contributed to the confusion last night guys and for that I am sorry.
              I will try to do better, I hope you all do the same.
              :)

              |

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              • #8
                Re: Rules Clarification

                Originally posted by Celestial1 View Post
                Anyone claiming that the Can. Obj. was a main base was mistaken. :)
                Well...due to quantumsomethingorother if and admin stated that Canadian Objective was treated as a main then it was correct at the time :D
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: Rules Clarification

                  Thanks for the clarification gentlemen. I don't know the pecking order around here, but based on the input here I'm assuming you guys have provided the official word on the rules?

                  As I've encountered this issue a number of times, perhaps an official addition to the rules explaining all of this would be helpful, and then a PM be sent to server admins informing them of the clarification of the main base rule?

                  Edit:

                  Also, there may be some use in clarifying the "purposes of attack / capture" clause. My scenario with the APC (above, reproduced below) would suffice, substituting "main base" for "Canadian Objective":

                  Looking at this I first think, okay we may not engage Canadian Objective, nor be fired upon from it, until it has an attack marker over it. Then the exception comes into play, and really muddies the water. So when the flag before is neutral (for us, Mike) we may then enter Canadian Objective for purposes of attack / capture, though we may still not fire INTO it. So I would assume that "purposes of attack / capture" mean that we are free to engage all enemies inside the main base once we get inside.

                  So in the situation where Mike is neutral, the following, per the rules, is the logical scenario:
                  -APCs may not fire into Canadian Objective on forces. Unless APCs are moving to go into Canadian Objective. Canadians may not fire upon APCs moving into Canadian Objective until the APC has entered cap radius. If APCs are engaged before they enter the Canadian Objective they have the right to take cover and return fire. Since they had the intention of entering Canadian Objective they are not "firing into a main" they are "returning fire in self defense." Now, if the APCs was to turn around and withdraw from moving towards Canadian Objective, and decide to leave, they may not be fired upon because the engagement has ended, and that would qualify as shooting out of a main.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Rules Clarification

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    Well...due to quantumsomethingorother if and admin stated that Canadian Objective was treated as a main then it was correct at the time :D
                    Man, I do love that quantumsomethingorother. :p

                    Originally posted by charcoaldabs View Post
                    Thanks for the clarification gentlemen. I don't know the pecking order around here, but based on the input here I'm assuming you guys have provided the official word on the rules?
                    Snooggums and Warlab are admins, so unless they or another admin states a further clarification/retraction, yes.

                    Also, there may be some use in clarifying the "purposes of attack / capture" clause. My scenario with the APC (above, reproduced below) would suffice, substituting "main base" for "Canadian Objective":
                    Only applies to main bases which also have a flag that can be captured, like Silent Eagle's Airstrip Bases.
                    Any other flag on the entire map can be attacked at any time (you can attack Canadian Objective on Yamalia at the very beginning of the round, if you'd like), but you cannot attack Main Bases (don't ever attack Canadian Deployment Area on Yamalia) only excluding when they are available for capture (you can't attack the Airstrip on Silent Eagle until the previous flag is neutral).

                    Don't substitute Main Base for Canadian Objective, for the Canadian Objective flag is not a main base. :)

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                    • #11
                      Re: Rules Clarification

                      Originally posted by Celestial1 View Post
                      Only applies to main bases which also have a flag that can be captured, like Silent Eagle's Airstrip Bases.
                      Any other flag on the entire map can be attacked at any time (you can attack Canadian Objective on Yamalia at the very beginning of the round, if you'd like), but you cannot attack Main Bases (don't ever attack Canadian Deployment Area on Yamalia) only excluding when they are available for capture (you can't attack the Airstrip on Silent Eagle until the previous flag is neutral).

                      Don't substitute Main Base for Canadian Objective, for the Canadian Objective flag is not a main base. :)
                      Right. But now I'm thinking of a different issue than the definition of a main base.

                      I'm thinking quite specifically about a scenario where main bases are capture-able. For instance on Silent Eagle's airfields: When the flag before goes neutral the attacking team may "enter for purposes of attack / capture" though the rules state that the defending team may not fire out of the main base nor may the attacking team fire into the main base yet. Per the rules, this sets up a scenario where as soon as the previous flag goes neutral the attacking team may proceed to and enter the main base, but neither team may fire at each other until the attacking team has entered the main base compound.

                      Example: The flag prior to the airstrip goes neutral, you are at the airstrip, you see four enemy squads walking towards the airstrip, you may not shoot them.

                      Do you catch my drift with the problem posed by the current rules?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Rules Clarification

                        There is already an explanation at the end of the main base rules that clarifies how main bases are handled when the flag prior to main is white and the main is not yet capable. I've copied the text and I'll bold the portions that apply to your question:

                        Rule 4a above allows for entry into an enemy main base if it is also their last flag when the prior flag goes neutral. They may not attempt to destroy vehicles or otherwise engage in base "rape" activities. They are allowed in specifically for the purposes of capturing the enemy flag or positioning themselves to attack once it comes in to play. These troops may be engaged and may fight back at this point. If the prior flag returns to complete control of the enemy team, those players who entered the main must attempt to exit as quickly as possible. They may be engaged and may fight back during this time, but they must be making an effort to leave the main base in doing so. Failure to attempt to leave may result in administrative action being taken.
                        |TG-6th|Snooggums

                        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Rules Clarification

                          OK, here is another scenario that happened on Fools Road, Saturday or Sunday (cannot remember which). British have been pushed all the way back to Dylum. Squads leave to go to Hill 210 to capture. Hill 210 is captured by British and the British set themselves up on 145. At the same time Dylum goes to Militia ownership and 145 is grayed. Unbelievable but it happened. British cannot spawn any longer as Dylum is now Militia, no spawn points, none in the vehicle area across the river (all red), no FOB's (all red). But the British own the 210 flag and grayed the 145 flag. The last 30 - 40 minutes of that map were horrible, Brits were able to gray back Dylum but we could not spawn anywhere. Militia won because they sat on Dylum and attritioned out the British.
                          So, if the capture of Dylum kills the spawn points across the river then it really should be considered a main base, it would be different if the spawn points continued to be spawnable across the river but that was NOT the case in this round.
                          It didn't happen on Yamalia last night but I believe if the same thing happened the spawn point in Canadian vehicle area would red out also, but I have NOT seen this as of yet.

                          Also, whoever shot the Canadian APC at Canadian objective, that WAS obeying the admin's ruling, that was very cheap and dishonorable thing to do. It won you the round but it was NOT right.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Rules Clarification

                            It is really all about semantics... If the final flag controls spawns... It should be considered "the main". If this is not the case, do we the players here at TG consider all areas of the battlefield in play. If that is the case then I suppose that there are many questionable strategies that can be implemented. Like

                            The US putting a fob at fortress on Muttrah... The british putting a fob up at Insurgent outpost on fools road... The Canadians putting an FOB on the islands outside Russian main on the islands at Yamalia.


                            If that is the type of game play we want on the server, "We" are in for a world of uncomfortable gameplay...


                            People speak of gaming the game, the above examples are gaming the Map. If we think this is okay. Game on... I for one don't believe that this was the intention of the mappers, the devs...

                            I was involved in both situations mentioned above. I don't mind losing, it isn't about that at all. I am however concerned about the intent of the rule, not the technicalities... It isn't very "sporting" but hey, if we are going to go down that road let's have some civil debate about it.

                            Where do we want the rules to go? Final flag be considered part of the main? I believe in pretty much all cases this is the intention of the rule....

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                            • #15
                              Re: Rules Clarification

                              Originally posted by brettwad View Post
                              At the same time Dylum goes to Militia ownership and 145 is grayed. Unbelievable but it happened. British cannot spawn any longer as Dylum is now Militia, no spawn points, none in the vehicle area across the river (all red), no FOB's (all red). But the British own the 210 flag and grayed the 145 flag. The last 30 - 40 minutes of that map were horrible, Brits were able to gray back Dylum but we could not spawn anywhere. Militia won because they sat on Dylum and attritioned out the British.
                              That isn't common enough to have a single ruling on, since how long it would drag out for the dead players and whether it could be ended would determine what to do.

                              Originally posted by davemccr View Post
                              If that is the case then I suppose that there are many questionable strategies that can be implemented.
                              There's a lot of questionable things players can do that aren't worth maintaining a rule for, and mature players should limit themselves and hopefully lead others in adhering to the basic concepts of TG. There will of course be disagreements on the limits but overall really poor tactics should be known to be frowned upon.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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