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  • Commander Tactics

    Its a hot summer night, and I cant sleep, so I decided to throw away any insight I have.

    What I saw tonight dismayed me. The squads followed orders, but stubbornly. The SLs (Squad Leaders) were adamently Teutonic in their adherence to the CDR's (Commander) instructions. This can be both good and bad.

    Much of modern military succeeds because the small unit leaders are given the flexibility and authority to make decision and more importantly, action.

    Often, the CDR cannot and does not have time to micromanage each and every squad.

    There is a solution, called AO (Area of Operations) or LOA (Limit of Advance). You can thus divide the map into sectors, each guaded by about 6-10 guys each. Usually, for a 32-1(the CDR) team, this means 3-4 teams. Then lets say you have 6 squads.

    So squads 1-2 will be responsible for (imagine clockwise)10PM-2PM - or NW.
    Squads 3-5 will be for 2PM-6PM - or NE.
    Squads 6-7 the 6PM-10PM - or S.

    Lastly you'dd want to leave a smaller squad (about 4) with SF and maybe either a support and medic as the deep strike squad that continuosly hit the enemy's main base to take away his UAV/SAT/ARTY assets. This squad will double as you QR (Quck reaction) force.

    Each squad will then be able to strike and defend in their own sector a certain amount of autonomy. If needed, forces from adjacent sector can be pulled to reinforce, and counter attack the enemy advance.

    This way, everyone will be easy to move within their sector without overlapping. I also strongly recommand that the squads patrol the bases in their sector continuously, as not to be fixed by enemy artillery. And of course, within each sector, the squads should have a base of primary responsibility, this should usually be a base with a large number of MBT, APC, AAA, HELO respawns. They are not to stray too far from these primary targets.


    ************************************************** **

    Bear in mind the facts of advance. It takes 3 to 1 advantage to take a base and hold it successfully (usually, 1 in suppress, 2 on the flank/attack).

    So that means that the enemy is at a disadvantage when attacking in groups of 10 and less (when opposed by a group of around 10).

    Of course you cannot kill em all, so you should leave a fat base for the enemy to hold and spawn. This should be a central base with little Armor asset respawns and prefferrably as little overhead cover as possible. It also helps that the base is in the low ground and has arduous track away from it. (The grainery base at Songha
    Valley is a good example)

    ************************************************** **

    Here is the meat of this tactic, its called defense in depth. This was initiated in WWI. To make a long story short, do not make your forces hold on adamantly. Everytime your enemy attacks, he exposes his flank, in this case, his rear, and open his ass up to a feroucious counter attack.

    They should hold if the force is small (about 3-6). But above that number, they should pull away, at which time, your artillery should be ready to hit your own base as your squad retrograde to nearby cover (about 50-100M away). Now, as soon as the enemy start to approach the gate, let the arty loose. It would take them that much time to get to the center and for the arty to be over head.

    The friendly squad can count to 10 ("thousand 1, thousand 2.....") and then immediatly assault from their cover. You will almost alway catch the enemy on thier ass. And if you are lucky, the flag is still neutral.

    This is where the other part of the sector plan comes in. At the same time, squads from the adjacent sector should attack from behind. Either at the enemy's base of origin, or the friendly base that was attacked. The choice depends on the force that the friendlies are dealing with at the base of origin. They should again not hold it adamantly, but also melt back when opposition become fierce.

    Hence, its a ying-yang plan, similar to all manuever warfare and Mao's "People's War".

    Here is apicture for reference.


    With time, your opponents will to attack will wither, and remain at the main base, at which point, you can rain arty on him all day looooong and win.

    Tonight, with a novice (in terms of pre-mssion tactics/commander's intent comprehension) team, I was able to achieve 150+ kills with arty (of course there were some TKs) and large win margins. However on Karkand, I lost. The jist of the idea is that you never close quater combat when indirect will do, and if the enemy wants it bad enough, et him have it, along with the artillery shrapnels. Ground forces are used only to fix the enemy and later occupy the objective, they should not be the main killer of the battlefield (And mind you Im not in the Arty branch).

    I know its a bit unorthodoxed for some of you, but believe me, its a smarter way to fight.

    And finally, I belive in entrusting leaders and let them react, otherwise, the SSG (or E6, SL's rank in real life) can just be PVTs (or E1, fresh outta AIT). A good unit does not even really need the Company commander getting all messy. The PLs should do all the coordination and the CDR to provide support from higher level assets.

    .
    Last edited by Deathdealer247; 07-19-2005, 09:26 AM.
    Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

  • #2
    Re: Commander Tactics

    I was on your team (MEC) when you were CO on Karkand and I must say the whole round looked ugly as hell from the trenches. I don't know if that was you giving us insane orders or our SL, but our team was getting conflicting commands halfway to one objective (think "defend this position (NW flag)", "attack this position (E bridge flag)", "attack here (W bridge flag)" all within a single minute, every other minute), so in the end we were just following our SL's VOIP commands. It seemed to us that you wanted us to capture all enemy flags and defend our crucial ones at the same time. And I still can't tell if the objective overdrive was from you or from the SL, but the end result was a whole lot of mayhem spewed over VOIP regarding your doings and those oddly timed artillery strikes. At some point I gave up on any and all orders and just tried to focus on keeping the bridge demolished and the enemy artillery down.

    I guess it was just a bad round as we won the successive (Mashtuur was it?) by quite a stretch and you did land some awesome artillery strikes on that one! Whether your aforementioned strategy has been used on Mashtuur or not, I do not know, but I hope you find my Karkand feedback useful for your future CO attempts. :)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Commander Tactics

      LOL I played here too and I seem to remember that squad 6 wasn't going the right way. By the way, we were squad 8 I think, a 2-man spec ops team killing their arty.

      I think you have to remember that somedays, you'll get total "f*ckwits" (A term we used to call those people in the army that we thought were less than capable and most likely to end up getting YOU shot lol).

      There are those players that don't really have a clue, those players that do have a clue, and those players who are ex-service and have a clue about real world stuff but it doesn't always work in game. Somedays you just get a bad deal as command, but thanks for commanding :)
      Jex.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Commander Tactics

        Originally posted by oldredminer
        I was on your team (MEC) when you were CO on Karkand and I must say the whole round looked ugly as hell from the trenches. I don't know if that was you giving us insane orders or our SL, but our team was getting conflicting commands halfway to one objective (think "defend this position (NW flag)", "attack this position (E bridge flag)", "attack here (W bridge flag)" all within a single minute, every other minute), so in the end we were just following our SL's VOIP commands. It seemed to us that you wanted us to capture all enemy flags and defend our crucial ones at the same time. And I still can't tell if the objective overdrive was from you or from the SL, but the end result was a whole lot of mayhem spewed over VOIP regarding your doings and those oddly timed artillery strikes. At some point I gave up on any and all orders and just tried to focus on keeping the bridge demolished and the enemy artillery down.

        I guess it was just a bad round as we won the successive (Mashtuur was it?) by quite a stretch and you did land some awesome artillery strikes on that one! Whether your aforementioned strategy has been used on Mashtuur or not, I do not know, but I hope you find my Karkand feedback useful for your future CO attempts. :)
        After much thought, I realize some of my mmistakes.

        1) I tend to ctrl+A and talk to everyone. This way, Squad 1 will know squad 3's plans. But at times, I would forget to de-highlight squads, thus ending up issuing ordes to everyone.

        2) Karkand and Mashtuur was hard to make sectors. Being sall, the enemy situation changes drastically from every scan. Especially on Mashtuur(or whatever its called), where our arty was in the middle of the map. This means you have to hold hte middle of the map, thus having very litle room for manuever and tactics.

        On Karkand, all manuevers has to cross the linear danger area that is the river. That means even when I wish you'd go back ot the city to capture some points, at alst scan, I would see a large amount of blocking force and decides to turn you around. Also, remember that Karkand has this warehouse on our side of the river, which is impossible to attack with arty.
        the sector concept was hard to institute. When small maps are involved, all the forces tend to flow into one and all sectors break down.

        I want to thank all of you as well as all the SLs for help and lasting trust and patience in my leadership.

        The AAR (After Action Review) conclusion is that, sometimes, you'd just have to work the entire team as 1-2 manuever element, espcecially on small maps. I also think that you comments are indicative of the need for small unit leadership, sinc micromangement has its limits (I only have one scan and 2 hands).

        But believe me, the concept is real and its a lot better in action on larger maps, where there is ample time between scan and WARNO (Warning Order - A.K.A "Initial Order"). And personally, I think its far better than the alternative, where all squads stubbornly hold points regardlessly.

        Of course all tactics are a work in progress, that is why additional imput is sought, which is why i posted. If you disagree, please reply with you AAR points, THANK YOU!

        Oh yea, before I forget, make sure one of you sectors includes a primary responsibility base that is close to your own home base. The uphill area with LAV and AA respawn is a good example.





        .
        Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Commander Tactics

          The 3 to 1 personel requirement for taking a base (let alone holding it) seems a bit off. Especially when 1 skilled support troop in a decent position can rack up 6 kills fairly quickly. |TG|panther (sic) and I were taking flags last night against all odds with the simple strategy: You kill 3 guys and I'll kill 3 guys.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Commander Tactics

            No, that how it works in real life.

            In the game is more around 2-1 advantage. Also, you assume that the enemy does not have UAV overhead. Regardlessly, its every hard to hold an objective with just 2 guys, you;d better be prepared for the counter attack.
            Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Commander Tactics

              why is there so much concern with enemy UAV? Speaking as some1 who has been there from the start of Organized FPS's (Tribes), I must say I see absolutely no reason to allow enemy UAV to effect your ingame performance:

              1) there is no way of knowing if we're under enemy UAV.

              2) there is no way to know if nearby enemies are effectively utilizing their UAV readout.

              3) if you're skilled at twitch-FPS responses to any and all threats, enemy UAV isnt going to save your enemy after you've obtain a visual on him/her and have moved in for the kill... good reflexes will.
              Last edited by walrus; 07-19-2005, 02:15 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: Commander Tactics

                One thing I would like to ask you deathdealer, is to turn your mic down and stop swearing so much. It was really hard to hear my squad while I was having my ear yelled off. Esspecially annoying when I wasn't the one you were yelling at.

                Something you have to understand is that these maps were designed for certain strategies. On Karkand it's crucial that the USMC never take a flag on the east side of the river. On Mashtuur the chopper is brutal, you have to let everyone know to shoot at it with whatever they have, whenever they can. And holding that USMC Heli pad is not a bad option if you can defend it effectively.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Commander Tactics

                  DeathDealer,
                  Awesome writeup! I have been drafting a very similar battle plan but I see you beat me to it. Plus you have the RL cred to back yours up which helps.

                  In your defense I would say that the battle plan, and the implementation usually have a huge rift between them. Between Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's Law fame) showing up to piss on your parade and the simple fact that the game is new and the team/SL/CDR interaction is for the mostpart unpolished, it is no surprise that your plan works worse in some situations than just pressing buttons in the CDR screen.

                  I for one fully intend your implement your suggestions, which are hightly similar to what I was coming up with, when next I sit in the commanders chair.

                  Great Job and thanks agian for the great write up!!
                  -Nyram
                  Sarcasm - It keeps me from killing people.

                  Let me introduce you to the Chain of Command.
                  It is this big damn chain that I beat you with until you understand who is in charge!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Commander Tactics

                    In my experience, between 2:1 and 3:1 is about right depending on the make-up on both sides (armor, etc.). Yes, you can take flags with a smaller ratio but you need to account for success ratio and combat effectiveness afterwards. How often do you succeed? Did you lose all of your armor in the assault? How many tickets did you lose in the process?

                    Commanders don't seem to think about the cost of taking a flag. I am tired of being sent into grinders like the Oil Cisterns flag in the middle of the Oilfields map. It's going to take 1/3 of the side plus 50 to 100 tickets to take and hold that one once you account for deaths in the assault, ticket bleed until neutralization, and deaths defending the counterattack. That flag is worth the same as all of the other flags and I am still seeing sides lose all of their tickets in assaults.

                    I think he is suggesting a worthy tactic to try since one of my chief frustrations is that (all humbleness aside), I seem to think and react a lot quicker than the people around and above me. More and more, I find myself telling the squad leader or commander, "Hey, we need a new objective. This one isn't working."

                    The Germans have a word for these types of flexible arrangements (yes, it's a real military tactic). The word translates roughly to "Saddle Orders" since the orders are given at what we know as the squad leader level. The effectiveness of the German Army (pre Eastern Front) is attributed to this arrangement at the NCO level.

                    IMHO, the commander should 1. scan, 2. pick the 2 cheapest points to capture, 3. send double the minimum people required to take the point.

                    At least consider the "Quick Reaction" force (which I would call the "Hot Troops," "HALO Team," or "Air Cav" team. That moves you from static defence to mobile defence and allows you to achieve numeric superiority through relative means instead of the absolute means. Absolute is impossible since both sides have an equal number of players.

                    http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/user/58Congo/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Commander Tactics

                      Originally posted by Phelan Ward
                      One thing I would like to ask you deathdealer, is to turn your mic down and stop swearing so much. It was really hard to hear my squad while I was having my ear yelled off. Esspecially annoying when I wasn't the one you were yelling at.

                      Something you have to understand is that these maps were designed for certain strategies. On Karkand it's crucial that the USMC never take a flag on the east side of the river. On Mashtuur the chopper is brutal, you have to let everyone know to shoot at it with whatever they have, whenever they can. And holding that USMC Heli pad is not a bad option if you can defend it effectively.
                      Sorry, its a bad habit. When issuing orders under stress (even if its simulated) I can make a sailor blush.

                      I disagree with u. In Karkand, USMC should first defend Western base (in the middle) as well as close to home, and go for deep strike at enemy UAV and arty at inception. This would create a blocking effort and slow the enemy advance. When he slows, you rain on him with your arty.

                      If you remember Sung Tzu, he talks about when an army from Nation A was attacking B.

                      Nation B asks C for help.
                      C Does not speed to his rescue.
                      But wait, and wait.
                      Then attacks A at capital.

                      Result is that A was totally defeated.

                      Due to the the haste of which forces were order back to defense of capital, A's army were all worn.

                      Same applies here. When you attack his UAV and arty, what happens? He must reduce his offensive capability, this is your chance to enhance USMC offense.

                      Lastly, I need to remind you that in Mashtuur/Karkand, Arty is tremendously distructive. Why?

                      1) all the alleys and building creats a channel effect and slow the enemy, whether they be in vehicle or on foot.
                      2) due to limited avenues of approach, the forces are cramped in.

                      Thus........... arty strike can be tremendously lethal.

                      Oh yea, if the freaking helo is shooting at you, shoot back. If the players dont know that, they are too dumb for me to micro manage.

                      Thus, the strategy on small maps is:

                      Go for their assets QUICK
                      Hold on to your own
                      With a large squad or two repeatedly moving between flag to flag, wearing the enemy out, and exposing them to your arty.

                      Therefore, its only a variation of the original plan.

                      ((Today I played Kubra with a guy named Sysrl, he did not heed any reason nor planing, and turned off his VOIP. I'd give him a bit of UCMJ (uniform cose of military justice) if I could......... admins take note plz.))
                      Last edited by Deathdealer247; 07-19-2005, 07:41 PM.
                      Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Commander Tactics

                        Originally posted by Ski-Racer
                        In my experience, between 2:1 and 3:1 is about right depending on the make-up on both sides (armor, etc.). Yes, you can take flags with a smaller ratio but you need to account for success ratio and combat effectiveness afterwards. How often do you succeed? Did you lose all of your armor in the assault? How many tickets did you lose in the process?
                        No, that how it works in real life.

                        In the game is more around 2-1 advantage. Also, you assume that the enemy does not have UAV overhead. Regardlessly, its every hard to hold an objective with just 2 guys, you;d better be prepared for the counter attack.
                        07-19-2005 09:37 AM
                        Ha, I beat u to it..... heheheheh

                        I think the QRF should be based at home base, because its often stocked with HELO assets and other goodies.
                        Last edited by Deathdealer247; 07-19-2005, 07:21 PM.
                        Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Commander Tactics

                          Originally posted by walrus
                          why is there so much concern with enemy UAV? Speaking as some1 who has been there from the start of Organized FPS's (Tribes), I must say I see absolutely no reason to allow enemy UAV to effect your ingame performance:

                          1) there is no way of knowing if we're under enemy UAV.

                          2) there is no way to know if nearby enemies are effectively utilizing their UAV readout.
                          in for the kill... good reflexes will.
                          Then there is no reason wy all the armies are moving toward greater situational awarenss is it? The US system is called FORCE XXI.

                          I think you have a civillian game player view. In reality, situational awarenss allows you to do more with less. Because everyone has a limit to how fast they can twitch. And number do count. And UAV destroys your element of surprise. Given how much the game deviates accuracy based upon movement, ur shots will count less and less as you move more and more, while you more numous opponet set you up for a flanking assault. or simply a grenade.

                          Of course there is a limit to effectivenss of situational awareness. That is to say, if a platoon of light infantry met up with a platoon of mechnized infantry or an armored company team(given an open terrain), they are doomed, even if they know the enemy's every move. Because the enemy;s firepower and mobility is so overwhelming. This of course is topic for another day.

                          All combat is based upon its ability to put the boots on the ground. And the most important factor in all of this is the ground itself.

                          And the story about WWI is that the German suffered less casualties on the western front because they had a "Defense iN depth". Instead of defending a point vehemently, they'd pull back to trench behind them. Then the enemy would be exhuasted in the assualt and stagnant in the trench thy just taken, but those trenches had been pre-plotted.

                          So now the mortars and all indirect comes in. Followed by shock troops (I think thats what they are called), carrying maxim 08/15 MGs without tripods, attacking from flanks.

                          Flanking from the right is prefferred, because the right hander is much more awkward shooting to his right (read your CQB tactics).

                          Thats the conclusion of your history lesson for today.
                          Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Congrats And Thanks For A 411-0 Win On Oman

                            WELL DONE! A great thanks and congrat for all the squad that operated under my command.

                            And to all the USMC...... "Duck and cover!"

                            Tonight at 0030, I was able to reach a 411 point advantage over the USMC at OMAN (on the 64 player pub server) with the tactics I used.

                            One key point is that you must leave one base on the beach for the enemy to spawn and get pounded.

                            As in Sun-Tzu, you cant cast a 4 sided net. You must open one side so that the enemy will fall willingly into you trap. After that, its just a matter of Arty recharge.

                            Unfortunately, I was only able to kill 90 with the Arty tonight, as opposed to the 150 record arty kill I had on Mashtuur.

                            HooooAh!
                            Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Commander Tactics

                              Hold on, why leave them a base to spawn on and get a foot hold? Even if they all spawn there and get rained on by arty, no matter what some are still alive and can move out to gain a foothold. Hold the entire beach, blow their arty up so they don't have a ranged offensive asset. Cover the beach and use the scan to check when and where an enemy is coming in so you can set up an ambush and destroy them. Bring your armor to the front to take out boats/helos. Why give them a chance?

                              As a side note, I didn't include this because I wasn't sure if it was a valid tactic. Is arty on a UCB allowed? I don't think it's mentioned in the SOPs, but it's kind of like a bombing run on a UCB.

                              In Sun Tzu's world, infantry didn't have to own a flag to respawn ;)



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