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  • CO interference with squad formation

    Often, I request certain kits in a squad, or for certain squad members to branch off and form a new squad for some purpose. I wonder how far this ability reaches without becoming annoying or overbearing. I want to have an effective team, but at the same time preserve the gameplay quality for all members. With this in mind, is it acceptable to:

    Request that a squad with too many snipers/medics/etc have some of them change to another kit?

    Request that certain strong players leave a squad when their leadership would be useful to form a new squad or help a weaker squad?

    Request that certain squad members break off and form a new squad for a specific purpose, such as repair work, destroying assets, fast attack, etc?

    Request that squad leaders create fire teams within their squad and dictate separate commands for each fire team? (This is an important one for me, because I will often say, "Squad 5, can you split into fire teams and have Alpha defend the current location while Bravo supports squad 6 to the north?")

    Feedback is appreciated! I love commanding and don't want anyone to hate me!

    Kisses,
    Sassy
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    [command][at][conduct][tpf-c1]

  • #2
    Re: CO interference with squad formation

    You are CO, you should get or do what ever you think will help the team win.

    I like it when a squad is split. Often times a squad is so busy chasing flags that nothing is accomplished, ie Capture one flag, leave to get another, the one you just captured gets taken. If you leave a couple of squad members to defend a flag I see no harm in that, I think it's the smart thing to do.
    "If the sword is always sheathed, it will become rusty, the blade will dull, and people will think as much of its owner." —Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

    I prefer a challenge and teamwork rather than a stat loading server without sound tactical ideals.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: CO interference with squad formation

      it really depends what the make up of the server is. If you have mostly TG SM's and regulars you generally have tons of flexibility in accomplishing the things you mentioned. But, if you have a lot of random pubbies chances are you really just need to work with what you have already.

      From what i've seen as CO you pretty much have the power to run the field however you like but the chances of you being successful depends on the type of players you are commanding. Some nights on TG pubbies can be pretty brutal to play with let alone command and expect to have any kind of success.
      Long Live the 2nd BCT and 1st MIP

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: CO interference with squad formation

        I'd definately say that it is apprpriate for the CO to be re-organizing the squads, especially if some squads are under (or over) manned, for the task that they are to have. That said, I find whenever I command, my brain is full enough just trying to get all my squads into roughly the right areas at the right time, along with coordinated arty, UAV and supplies.

        IMHO, I think that the squad-members' kits should be left up to the SL, who may well choose to leave the kits up to the squaddies themselves. We're all capable players here, and can make reasonably informed choices on what load-out is best for a particular mission with particular circumstances.

        Asking squads to divide or merge is a very appropriate thing for a CO to do. I don't think SLs will do this on their own. This is mainly because the SL is likely too busy with the tactical situation around him/her and doesn't know about the status of the other squads, or what would be best overall. This is definately the CO's job. I think this includes asking squads to reform a special squad (fast attack, repair, specops, etc).

        In terms of fireteams, I would also tend to leave this to the SL. My order would probably be something along the lines of "Squad 5, you need to defend the flag you're at and support Squad 6 to the north." It sounds a little contradictory, but I believe that an SL with his wits about him/her will be able to devise the need for and application of fireteams, if they are not already being used.

        I recall you being a commander last night (09/15) but I was on the other team. I think the only thing a commander needs that can't be had through experience is a mic and the desire to command. I'm sure you're doing great, and it'll only get better.

        Dice.

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        Comment


        • #5
          Re: CO interference with squad formation

          Often, I request certain kits in a squad, or for certain squad members to branch off and form a new squad for some purpose. I wonder how far this ability reaches without becoming annoying or overbearing. I want to have an effective team, but at the same time preserve the gameplay quality for all members. With this in mind, is it acceptable to:

          Request that a squad with too many snipers/medics/etc have some of them change to another kit?
          Yes, this is acceptable to a certain extent. You have to look at the situation at hand. Sometimes squads will have 2 or 3 medics because they are going into a bad situation and feel they need the extra medic power to support them. I personally wouldn't like the 6 man "sniper squad" if I were a CO. This is useful on some maps (river firefight at Karkand), but not very useful on others. I can see their use to break up and sneak in and take flags and then pick attackers, but as a full defensive or offensive squad it's just not a feasible idea, IMO. I would feel comfortable asking that kind of squad to bring some other kits so I could use them offensively or devensively if needed. Maybe 3 snipers, medic, support, AT.

          Request that certain strong players leave a squad when their leadership would be useful to form a new squad or help a weaker squad?
          I don't think this would be acceptable. Trying to coordinate something like this would not only be difficult, it would probably tick a lot of people off. What I usually see is that most squads have a decent SL, so something like this shouldn't have to be done. What I do see a lot is the CO asking squads of 1 or 2 men to join up and make a larger squad. A 1 man squad isn't very effective unless he's an engineer who is staying behind to repair assets during the game.

          Request that certain squad members break off and form a new squad for a specific purpose, such as repair work, destroying assets, fast attack, etc?
          I wouldn't ask them to break off and form a new squad. What I would do is search out who is an engineer and ask that squad to send that engineer to where you needed repair work done. It may only be for a short time and I wouldn't want to break up the cohesion of a squad. Chances are that squad will need that engineer manning a tank/APC later and you should leave that option available to them. For destroying assets, just find 1 or 2 spec ops and do the same. Tell them to go destroy assets and then get out.

          Request that squad leaders create fire teams within their squad and dictate separate commands for each fire team? (This is an important one for me, because I will often say, "Squad 5, can you split into fire teams and have Alpha defend the current location while Bravo supports squad 6 to the north?")
          As you play with everyone more you learn which SL's can do this easily and quickly to accomplish the job you need. You will also learn that certain SL's will do this without you even having to ask (because of their high situational awareness). Overall, it shouldn't be a problem though. What you have to remember is that you have the scan and can relay to your SL's why you need them to do what you are asking. Simply say "Squad 5, can you send 3 men to the north to assist squad 2? They are facing 2 squads approaching from the east." Just give them a quick idea as to why they are going there and what they need to look for.

          Feedback is appreciated! I love commanding and don't want anyone to hate me!
          No one will hate a CO for trying ;) One more thing I might offer up is don't be afraid to set a squad to defend once you have them at a flag and you have ticket bleed in your favor. You don't always need every flag and it really wears on some people when they have to march across the map only to be killed half way there, then be sent 180 degrees to the other end of the map, only to be send to another flag when they are almost at their destination. Keep most squads in small jumps unless absolutely necessary to make a big jump. Remember that on most maps you'll have transport helos you can use to send a squad some distance in a short amount of time. Hope this helps.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: CO interference with squad formation

            Originally posted by SassyOne
            Request that a squad with too many snipers/medics/etc have some of them change to another kit?

            Request that certain strong players leave a squad when their leadership would be useful to form a new squad or help a weaker squad?

            Request that certain squad members break off and form a new squad for a specific purpose, such as repair work, destroying assets, fast attack, etc?

            Request that squad leaders create fire teams within their squad and dictate separate commands for each fire team? (This is an important one for me, because I will often say, "Squad 5, can you split into fire teams and have Alpha defend the current location while Bravo supports squad 6 to the north?")
            IMO,
            1 and 2 involve too much micromanagement. Leave it to the squads to decide what works on the ground. You have more important things to do. Weak squads will happen, even with strong leaders, so you are better to just work with what you have.

            3 could be sent as a generic request: Can I get a volunteer to make a small spec ops squad?

            4 is micro again. Ask the squad if they can spare a few defenders to help another squad. The SL will have a good idea of who he can send off and how he will manage the split without affecting his other duties.
            Peace through fear... since 1947!

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            • #7
              Re: CO interference with squad formation

              Originally posted by SassyOne
              Often, I request certain kits in a squad, or for certain squad members to branch off and form a new squad for some purpose. I wonder how far this ability reaches without becoming annoying or overbearing. I want to have an effective team, but at the same time preserve the gameplay quality for all members. With this in mind, is it acceptable to:

              Request that a squad with too many snipers/medics/etc have some of them change to another kit?
              Micromanagement, but acceptable in my view. Unless the team is a designated SNIPER squad (they have 4-5 snipers and a support and/or medic), more than 2 snipers on a squad makes the squad weak on an assault.

              IF that squad is mission critical to your strategy (closest, only one not being bombed at the moment, etc..) then a request to switch should be honored.

              If they are a dedicated squad of some type, make sure you use them right and you won't have to make that request.

              Request that certain strong players leave a squad when their leadership would be useful to form a new squad or help a weaker squad?
              Absolutely acceptable. If I'm CO, I want to think: who are my strongest SLs? If any of the awarded SLs is not SL on a squad, it's a misappropriation of resources.

              Request that certain squad members break off and form a new squad for a specific purpose, such as repair work, destroying assets, fast attack, etc?
              On a volunteer basis, sure.

              Request that squad leaders create fire teams within their squad and dictate separate commands for each fire team? (This is an important one for me, because I will often say, "Squad 5, can you split into fire teams and have Alpha defend the current location while Bravo supports squad 6 to the north?")
              I think this crosses the line. If you have the SLs you want in place, let them figure out how to manage their objectives.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: CO interference with squad formation

                Micromanagement...never thought I would see that word used in a game forum.......

                :)
                "If the sword is always sheathed, it will become rusty, the blade will dull, and people will think as much of its owner." —Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

                I prefer a challenge and teamwork rather than a stat loading server without sound tactical ideals.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: CO interference with squad formation

                  Often, I request certain kits in a squad, or for certain squad members to branch off and form a new squad for some purpose.
                  A good SL will be way ahead of you with the kits. If you need to rearrange your squads then definitely do so. I have had CO's ask for my squads to be altered before and I have absolutely no problem with it, and nor should anyone else. If I thought the CO was making a mistake then I would quickly explain my thoughts and ask for confirmation - but if that is what the CO wants, then that is what the CO gets.

                  I wonder how far this ability reaches without becoming annoying or overbearing. I want to have an effective team, but at the same time preserve the gameplay quality for all members. With this in mind, is it acceptable to
                  Generally a CO that is communicating with squads effectively will be loved.

                  Request that a squad with too many snipers/medics/etc have some of them change to another kit?
                  This is fine, but again a good SL should be ahead of you. However it doesn't hurt to say it.

                  Request that certain strong players leave a squad when their leadership would be useful to form a new squad or help a weaker squad?
                  This I imagine is difficult for 2 reasons. 1/ Not everyone that is a good player is a good leader, and different squads run differently. For example I think Xink is a fine leader, but he does not like being squad leader. However as a fire team leader in Rambo's squad he is a fine player indeed. 2/ Not everyone who is a good SL wants to do that all the time. If I am tired I know I should not and can not play SL, so I will go grunt. Whereas I would take a request to lead another squad as a compliment, I might not be able to accomplish it effectively. It might be better to request that a squad needs a leader, and could all SL's ask their guys if someone is happy to step up.

                  Request that certain squad members break off and form a new squad for a specific purpose, such as repair work, destroying assets, fast attack, etc?
                  Definitely do this. If you need a job done make it happen!

                  Request that squad leaders create fire teams within their squad and dictate separate commands for each fire team? (This is an important one for me, because I will often say, "Squad 5, can you split into fire teams and have Alpha defend the current location while Bravo supports squad 6 to the north?")
                  This in my opinion is a mistake. I don't use fire teams, I find no need. It does not help my style at all as I tend to organise on a kit by kit basis. For me to form fire squads would actually make my leading worse. That said if you need me to cover more than one objective then I can organise my squad in order to perform the mission. I will often send a 2 man recce patrol out to do something for example, but they are not a fire team.

                  Feedback is appreciated! I love commanding and don't want anyone to hate me!
                  The fact you are asking here indicates that you are the sort of CO that listens as well as talks, in which case your SLs should get on very well with you.

                  :)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: CO interference with squad formation

                    Gah, as a CO i hate sniper squads of more then 2 people. If its just 2 people i love them because they can get a undefended base simply by sneaking in (and if theyre snipers they probably good at being sneaky). However if its more then 2 people its a complete waste of people imo.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: CO interference with squad formation

                      I think this is acceptable, but, in all honesty, it means you don't trust or believe in a squad leader's decisions. I think this type of commanding is equivalent to micromanaging your assets which is a waste of the commander's time. He or she could make better use of his time managing macro strategy. If a commander is skilled enough to pull off both _effectively_, then more power to him.
                      |TG|seppy

                      [tg-c1][medic]


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                      • #12
                        Re: CO interference with squad formation

                        My advice: as a CO stay away from micromanagement , otherwise you will be in for a serious head-ache. Let the squad leaders be your co-leaders. If its obvious they're making bad decicions, don't bother with it because they are probably inexperienced players.
                        Last edited by Ol'Smoke; 09-18-2005, 12:52 AM.
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                        • #13
                          Re: CO interference with squad formation

                          Anything is allowed as long as it will lead to victory.

                          That said, you need to maintain the morale of your officers and marines. If you do not have confidence in a SL, replace him or her, but let them do their job until then.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: CO interference with squad formation

                            Remember guys that this is not the military, it is a game where people are trying to have fun. Whereas we are all keen to work as a team at the same time a certain level of charisma is needed in order to get the best of both worlds. A SL who doesn't ask for feedback from his guys is probably under-utilising them, and in the same way a CO that does the same is not taking into account the extra perspective the SLs have.

                            It is about 2-way communication. If a CO gives me an order and I think it is a mistake I will give a quick explanation of why. If I cannot acheive the order then I will reject it. For example if I have been told to move off a flag and enemy armour has just rolled in to the one I'm at then I will 'vote no', and then comm the CO with something like "CO, Squad 3, negative - pinned down by enemy armour".

                            But then is every SL going to be like this - especially if they have never done it before? CO and SL must be very frustrating positions if you are new to it, and it is up to the people around them to help them learn. IF a SL is ineffective because he is new then help him/her get better. Sure you might lose the game, but once the game is over it is gone. The help you impart to another person will live on in both their knowledge and appreciation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: CO interference with squad formation

                              I think this discussion is addressing the 'shoulds' of micromanaging, interfereing with fun player experience, and trusting SLs. But it is ignoring a few prevailing trends that often a CO is best able to see.

                              1)Concerning reorganizing players between squads, forming new ones, and assigning kits. I agree some people are better SLs than others and no one knows this more than the grunt. What often happens is the 2 premiere SLs get full 6 man squads of some of the better and more coordinated grunts. Then you get like 4 SLs with 2 men each. Not necesarily good or bad SLs but probably former grunts good enough to be frustrated by poor SLing elsewhere so they are trying to start a squad. WHat this means for the commander is that they can pick two CPs that are going to be iron-clad with those two premiere squads and SLs. In defense they won't be budged all game, and in offense they will be most likely able to succeed of any squads. Meanwhile NONE repeat NONE of the other squads are consistently able to accomplish mission waypoints in either defense or offense. I think any experienced CO has seen this in effect, and me, a particular inexperienced CO is plagued by it.

                              But I think the appropriate CO is response to this situation is for the CO to call the premiere SL and ask him to please send a <first, second or third> class player form his squad depending on the need to another and then, regretably lock his squad. Otherwise the second someone leaves Bommando's squad, you know five poorly led, frustrated grunts will be lining up to take that empty slot.

                              I hate locking squads but I can't think of how else to achieve balanced squads in the marketplace of SLs who provide more and less successful and enjoyable experiences to grunts.

                              2) A squad on the offense as a rule in conventional tactical thinking should have a 2 to 1 numerical advantage whereas a squad on defense is often consistently successful being outnumbered by 50% or less.

                              That being said the obvious solution is to always assign 2 squads to attack a CP and leave one of them to defend and send one on the attack again if they when they are successful. But in reality, when does a CO ever seem to have enough competent squads to do that? I know I rarely have felt that as a CO, although I am speaking from a position of inexperience.

                              What I see more of the time is COs sending the same squad to capture a point that they then use to defend it. This results in them often struggling to capture it in the first place. And then often times them getting soon pushed off by an asymetrical attack by more than one squad(sometimes just a squad and a fireteam).

                              What the battlefield really calls for is often times 8 men assualting or 4 men defending at a moment and then the next 15 are needed to secure that same assualt and the 4 men defense is idle and uncontributing and in the next 15 men are loitering at a recent cap OVER defending it while those 4 miserable bastards are being cut to pieces by an overwelming counter attack by 2 squads.

                              This is what the battlefield demands. In this thread, I think the issue is discussing how best COs and SLs can coordinate to meet battlefield needs that don't often fit into the common team structure of:

                              6 man super squad
                              6 man super squad
                              2 man helo
                              4 man jet
                              and 3-4 squads of 1-4 players each who are oftentimes too small to defend alone and even too small to attack successfully in tandem.
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