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Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

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  • Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

    But how many of these ideas are seeing the light of day?

    When I try to squadlead on the pub server and implement any of them it is a three-ring circus(particualrly the fireteams, etc.).

    If anyone can point me toward the nook or cranny of TG that is seeking to attain more tactical coordination please do. I don't want to be reinventing the wheel here.

    But short of that, I propose we, the tactical geeks of TG, take matters into our own hands to reform this. In this thread propose ideas you have to promote a higher level of tactical coordination between squadmates.

    A few things I think we need are:

    1. A common language standard to communicate tactics both from SL to squadmates and between squadmates. Right now there is nothing Standard about our Standard Operating Procedures.

    2. A regular time to meet and review tactics. We need to educate each other when we are not under orders or under fire on the public server. This should include a standard playbook of maneuvers. Yes tactics need to be adapted to situations, but they also need a foundation of SOPs that adaptations are drawn from. A SL should be able to say, "Right Flank Loud Assault" and squadmates should have a clear idea of what is intended and what to expect from their mates before adapting.

    3. Lastly I think we need some sort of a ranking system that shows each player's mastery of the tactical jargon(point 1) and the developed SOPs and tactical maneuvers(point 2). So to attain the 1st rank, you have shown up at the regular time and practiced to the point of mastery a basic set of plays and know the basic language. Each subsequent rank would build on that. This way on pub servers SLs know what they can expect from soldiers.

    Right now I am frustrated in my efforts to step up to the next level tactically and think we tactical euthusiasts at TG can do better.
    Xbox Live Gamertag: TG ABRA
    live.xbox.com/member/TG ABRA
    Friend me!

  • #2
    Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

    Good points, but you have to consider one thing: it's a game and it's meant to be fun.

    Your ideas would be great for one of our house squads to implement, but I think that there are too many people that aren't interested in putting that much work into playing a game. I know that I'm not. I don't want to travel the virtual battlefield in an echelon left formation. I don't want to be chastised for saying "OK, I'll go around back" instead of "Roger, I'll flank the enemy". I also don't want to have to practice just so I can play the game.

    That's not to say that they're not excellent ideas that would make the game more fun for some people! I think your best bet, though, would be to join or form a squad that is also interested in doing the same thing. Done right, it would most definitely make you a force to be reckoned with. Comm efficiency is an extremely valuable quality, and I don't see why fireteam/squad formations used by modern infantry wouldn't be effective in BF2.

    I say go for it! Make an uber-tactical squad of your own! If the squad membership is entirely supporting member, then TG will give you your own private forum and everything you need to make this work.
    Become a supporting member!
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    • #3
      Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

      While this sounds great in theory, for me it would be next to impossible. I enjoy meeting with the 7th for team practice, but wouldn't dedicate time to something like this for several reasons:

      I work full time
      I attend class 3 nights a week
      I'm married and have 2 kids (3 and 6)
      I enjoy playing with the little spare time I have.

      For me, I really like to have fun with this game. To try and learn some set of communications would not only be tedious, it would be extremely hard for everyone here to learn, and then you have to think about dealing with newbies to TG. You're going to ramble something off in chat and they are going to say "WTF did you just say?" You might as well be speaking arabic to them. I would go so far as to point out that B has made some excellent SL guides, but even that is a bit much for me to follow. That is some top notch information that he's posted, but I just like to jump in and play. Unless everyone has read his guide, they won't understand things like formations that you are asking them to setup in. I know how to use my squad with what we're given and I try to relay that in simple english to everyone with as little explanation as possible. No need to clutter up the chat and confuse people. I'm from the school of "ABRA, watch the north gate, Ultra back me up at the south gate, Strag put C4 on the flag and sit on the east hill keeping a watch", etc.

      I think you propose a good idea, but you have to find people who can be dedicated to this and practice it often. I know there are some pretty serious players in our ranks, maybe they'll chime in.

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      • #4
        Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

        Hey Abra;

        I'm definately interested in your ideas, but I've not had the time nor the planning to execute them effectively on my own. I'm very interested in signing up for your new team, and I'm a supporting member too! TG-Hosting, here we come (maybe...)!

        A quick word about my time; I'm busy, like the rest of us here. But if we can schedule one or two practices a week, then I'll make a point to block those times off.

        On comms, effective and efficient communications (and the cohesive, precise teamwork that results) make me giddy and happy in a way that words cannot adequately express. It's like a second puberty. I'll leave that out there for you to interpret as you choose.

        Ranks are important for a very practical reason; everyone knows their place in the team and can work on excelling in their niche. More generally than ranks, some kind of positioning system, wherein the same people play the same roles and work to master the ins and outs of that role.

        Will any of this make one a better BF2 player, speaking generally (i.e. could you log onto a pub solo and give them all a good thrashing?)? Not dramatically (or not at all), since the niche roles will complement each other; kind of the inverse of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" idea; "the parts are diminished by division" maybe. But it means that when we come into a server operating as a single squad, or even a whole team, we should be able to bring an effective lethal killing machine to bear like it has rarely been witnessed before.

        Anyway, I just wanted to put my support behind you publicly. PM me if something does get rolling.

        Dice.

        [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
        [ma-c2][taw-c1]

        Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
        Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

        Treat others as you would have them treat you

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        • #5
          Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

          I like to play and have fun, but I like to give these ideas a try here and there and see how serious squadplay results in the servers. The 1stMIP group has been working on the exact things you mention ABRA for a couple of months now. Things with our group have slowed since JohnCANavar has departed for a couple of months but we have much of this infrastructure in place.

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          • #6
            Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

            Lets make up a 30 or more question test and those that pass get a ribbon. Or something like when Submariners know everything about a sub, they get their dolphins.

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            • #7
              Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

              The 42nd tries to apply some of these real world tactics. We're not an uptight elite squad with strict rules and rankings however. It is a game after all, but we do try to squeeze every tactical advantage we can out of the game and have fun at the same time.

              We have a regular Wed. practice where we practice various kits and specific fireteam tactics. The practice is starting to pay off in terms of team camaraderie and knowledge. The hard part is making it all come together in game, but that will come in time.
              New to TG?

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              • #8
                Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                Hearing what you're saying I'd say the MIP sounds like a good fit for you, as Faultline pointed out. The SOPs are there for that reason, especially the SITREP, Contact Reports, Fire and Movement ones. I think using those regularly would provide a big advantage over our usual methods, and I try to use them as much as possible. But the fact is there are a lot of new people on our servers everyday (I think I had 5 new faces in my squads last nite), and having to explain each SOP to them mid-game isn't practical.

                Personally I try to strike the right balance of organization and fun for my squad members (and myself for that matter). They're definitely not mutually exclusive, but I personally having a certain amount of looseness/squad member autonomy to keep the fun factor up. I think my style is more assigning general roles (usually on defense), adapting to the changing tactical picture, and coordinating everyone to make sure we're as effective as possible given our constraints. Then letting my squad members manage the situation as they see fit.

                That being said, a more widespread adoption of the aforementioned SOPs can only increase the effectiveness of our communications.
                Beatnik

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                • #9
                  Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                  ABRA, talk to John CANavar about trying out for 1st MIP (C-Team). You may be compatible with the team's goals and style. Note that John will be gone until the beginning of November. Formal operations in C-Team are currently suspended until he returns. Until then we may be playing together if several of us happen to be on at the same time. If you see a 1st MIP squad with a slot open feel free to request an invite if you would like to get a feel for the way we operate.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                    Exactly. It'd be great to have you.

                    [conduct][volun][drill][sg-c1][tpf-c1]
                    |TG-2nd|munchkin
                    Nec aspera terrent.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                      Where did John go?

                      I surprised he didn't appoint a leader in his absence.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                        Originally posted by MeanDrLily
                        Where did John go?
                        He returned to Turkey for his yearly mandatory military service. Talk about 'realism'. :)

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                        • #13
                          Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                          ABRA, Diceman - I'd recommend the 42nd Recon. PM USN_Squid - I'm sure he can arrange an invite to one of our practices for us to get to know each other and decide if the other is what we're looking for.
                          "You live and learn. Or you don't live long."
                          - Lazarus Long

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                          • #14
                            Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                            I definitely realize how big a turn off this can be for some people and wouldn't dream of making anything mandatory or deriding those who don't follow it. This thread was geared to those who voluntarily seek this sort of experience and not to try to impose a degree of draconian regimentation on our players, where ever they are on the time commitment spectrum. JMJ, Cingular, we're big enough boys to know our playstyles and know where they overlap and where they do not. No one is insulted if I bail on your, in my experience, well-led squads JMJ because I am looking for something more detailed. Or vice versa, if I'm running ABRA's Anal Avenger squad and nit-picking and you want to leave. Have fun where you find it, my squad or elsewhere.

                            But by the same token those of us who do get off on it appreciate having such tactical depth recipricated. So in a way bear in mind jsut as is is assumed an insubordiante squadmember will be kicked because they inhibit TG player's fun squad-based teamplay, a squad member who pursues orders in a rogue fashion apart from the cohesive squad's tactical plan detracts from a tacticophile's experience.

                            Hell, I wouldn't even say the things I'm talking about would necessarily yield better, more effective players and squads. It is just my crazy idea of fun. It's not unlikely that a of couple hard-charging point men could rush my squad and do deadly jazz all over them as my sgt. and I debate the finer points of whether this situation calls for a left eschelon or a left peel. Obviously I'd hope that not be the case, especially over time, but I won't lie and say it won't happen.

                            But that's more fun to me in some ways than having 5 guys trickle into an objective piecemail with mixed results while I watch as a conservative spawnpoint. Even if that ends up being as effective or moreso that coordinated attacks, big whoop. We are all here at TG because a certain game play style appeals to us moreso than victory under any conditions(bunny-hopping < squad membership).

                            Thank you for all the invites and such I'll keep an eye out for you on the servers and be in contact. I too have a paucity of time for this game and the level of practice commitment is a turn-off. In my experience an ounce of practice is worth a pound of play experience, in sports, games, whatever. So I enjoy devoting some practice time as I know my playtime will be that the more rich. Just my speed though, suit yourselves obviously.

                            I'm hesitent to starting a new outfit for this as I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I'm new here so I think building on existing foundations in this area would be more productive than tearing them down and starting from scratch. Also I don't want to be just another chief looking for indians creating a "too many chiefs not enough indians environment". But the idea is tempting and you guys seem encouraged by it. Honestly an interteam combat school for those interested in participating might be more somethign I'd be interested in.

                            Anyway, thanks for all the opinions.
                            Xbox Live Gamertag: TG ABRA
                            live.xbox.com/member/TG ABRA
                            Friend me!

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                            • #15
                              Re: Yeah, Yeah we talk the tactical talk...

                              I didn't mean to discourage you in any way, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think that TacticalGamer is going to get much more "technically tactical" than we already are. Individual squads, however, are very likely to provide the type of gameplay that you're looking for.

                              If you've read the TacticalGamer Primer, then you know that TG exists to cater to the ideas that you've stated in this thread. But as I mentioned, there are people that are interested in a less technical and informal version of tactical teamplay. So, TG tries to appeal to everyone, while still adhering to the philosophy contained in the TG Primer. One of the ways TG does that is by encouraging squads or clans to call TG home.

                              If you're not interested in starting a new squad, you might want to check the Members Only forums for more information on existing TG squads, or head over to www.TacticalConflict.com, where there are non-supported squads strategizing in their private forums.

                              Heck, you can also just start posting threads to try to train the rest of us monkeys in more advanced tactics. That would be great, too. I just wouldn't expect everyone on the server to have read and embraced your tactical posts, y'know?
                              Become a supporting member!
                              Buy a Tactical Duck!
                              Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
                              TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

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