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Lightning Warfare

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  • Lightning Warfare

    In our scrim against MA, we were caught off guard by the speed and aggressiveness of their attacks (AAR thread). Their blitzkrieg style is something we can learn to counter, and even incorporate into our own toolbox for future use. Let's put our tactical heads together and come up with ideas that we can implement to our benefit.

    Much of MA's speed was accomplished through extensive use of buggies. They were zipping all over the maps in buggies, using them to make very quick flag caps, and also streaking through our defenses so they could exploit our rear. They would also follow up buggy spearheads with immediate coordinated armor support (the right hook after the jab). How can we put a stop to this? Some thoughts:

    - Communication. Typically, I don't think many of us TGers consider buggies to be serious threats. Now we know they can be. Let's be sure to continuously spot buggies, and communicate their locations among SLs and the CO. Because buggies are so fast, they can pass between one SL's AO and another SL's AO very quickly. Via Teamspeak, SLs can pass buggy locations on to one another, keeping buggies under more effective watch.

    - Assault kits. A very effective kit against buggies is the Assault kit. With his grenade launcher, the Assault can take out a buggy in one shot. It may be wise to have at least one Assault per squad, and make sure he/she knows when a buggy is entering the AO. Assault = buggy killer. If we can take out their buggy spearhead immediately, we should be able to handle their remaining armor in a more conventional manner with which we're already familiar.

    - What else?


    Also, how can we incorporate fast-moving buggies into our own strategies? Instead of having only special teams using buggies, it seems clear that we need to learn how to have our main squads using them as well. As we have learned, speed is of the essence.




    Comments, thoughts, and discussion, please!

  • #2
    Re: Lightning Warfare

    Wasn't there so I didn't get to see what happened. Only read the reports. I hear Depth on defense so that if there is an initial breakthrough, you can have fall back points.

    Obstructions to slow them down, the Mine in the road with the C4 bomb on the sides to get a quick mover.

    Playing defense may require Reserves that could be called up quickly to help defend key points. If they were able to roll 10+ 3 armor, we should have the 6 defending, but then maybe a 4 man quick response team that can flank, or help defend.

    Alternate routes. I posted some alternate routes on Dragon which I understand they pushed their blue line down the map. It gives an alternate way to attack back flags. Other maps, we have to find non-traditional routes to get back flags and flank. Get a quick 2-3 man squad onto a flag, turn it and then have a defending style squad spawn there and hold it. Quick Response team then continues on.

    Just some thoughts.

    Lucky Shot

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    • #3
      Re: Lightning Warfare

      I was actually joking about forming a "Buggy Attack Squad" a couple of days ago. Now I'm reconsidering it. I think that C4 is at its most useful here. Toss packs on roads at the start of rounds, blow bridges, stick it on walls near the flag. Grenade launchers have limited usefulness unless you can pull off the shot.

      How to blow bridges fast:
      Stick C4 on a buggy. Drive it onto bridge. Hop out. Blow it.

      -Call in airstrikes. Jets are faster than buggies. Using the TS protocol (I'm not sure if it was used), you can bypass the LOC involving the CO and can talk directly to the pilots.

      -Everyone, spot the buggies. Either make use of a SL channel on TS to communicate a threat, or get the commander to give a shout out.

      -As the buggies pass, get your entire squad to focus fire. Buggies do not need to be on fire for you to kill the guy in them. Even if you don't hit the driver, they're pretty easy to take down anyway. Hop on a .50 cal, or just spray with your weapon.

      [conduct][volun][drill][sg-c1][tpf-c1]
      |TG-2nd|munchkin
      Nec aspera terrent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Lightning Warfare

        Yes, I have noticed that blitzkrieg attacks are hard to defend against at TG. This style can be seen in use by Deveran's Leeth. I have seen squad leaders who cannot adapt to this tactic. Even though it is the same manuever over and over again until it succeeds, they cannot counter it. I mention squad leaders specifically because they should give the orders for the squad's tactics. But there is still some responsibility for squad members to understand the situation also and respond accordingly.

        I feel the main reason for our lack of defense is the underuse of certain classes. Primarily being anti-tank and engineer. Off hand, only a few names come to mind when I think of those classes. Xink, Robocop, and Phelan Ward for engineer. And actually, I cannot name anyone who I see regularly playing AT. And when I mean regularly, I mean playing the kit constantly no matter what the map. For example, I play support no matter the map unless there is another support in the squad. Then I normally switch to engineer, again regardless of the map unless there is another engineer. Of course, if the squad leader need something specific, I will switch. The reason I mention this is because I dont think we have a good amount of skilled players in those classes.

        I have to disagree with Strag about the assault class being a buggy killer. Can they do it? Yes, usually only when they are about to be run over. On Dragon Valley, the buggies would drive behind the garage at the Wood Yard and head for the rear bases. The did this purposely to avoid getting shot by troops in the base. If the buggy gets past and down the road, the guided AT missle is the only thing that has a good chance to bring it down. While the AT has a chance to kill incoming vehicles, usually the chance is better after is has passed because the driver cant see the incoming missle and try to dodge. But the AT class is the primary vehicle killer. The lack of them showed on Karkland also. Many times thier armor and vehicles stayed alive way too long. I noticed this since I was on defense in the rear and stayed in the map screen to direct my squad. The vehicles were spotted, but they stayed active a long time when engaged in combat before being destroyed. Two ATs should take down an APC in seconds after it appears.

        The AT mine should definitely be used to deflect vehicular traffic. Even though they can now be destroyed, they are still a deterrent. The buggies bypassed the mines in the road by climbing a little bit up the hill. But the narrow space behind the garage could have been covered with only one unavoidable AT mine. Buggies are the most susceptible to the mines since they travel faster and have a smaller window to react to dangers in the road. Having the knowledge how to place the mines is very important. The vehicles on Karkland should never have gotten across if there were mines at the top of the ramp and on the roads leading to the rear. There was C4 on the ramp, but that is an active defense (must be blown by player) while mines are a passive defense. There is a habit to try to replace mines with C4 but it is not the same. C4's place is in an ambush role, not as an emplaced defense like mines.

        Emplaced ground defenses is another way to counter attacks. No one was manning the TOW guns at the Wood Yard on Dragon Valley even though there is a clear shot all the way up the road to the Island Farmhouse where they tended to concentrate their armor on the west side of the river. I killed 3 pieces of armor in a row with the TOW before being killed by a plane and there was still another enemy APC on the road. While you may be a sitting duck, you are still able to blunt the attack before being killed. They can also be used against the buggies.

        Air assets can also be used to kill the buggies. Many times on Daquig, I am bombed out of jeeps by Viper or Lekdevil. I wouldnt think that I make such a noticable target to jets in jeeps but its effective to blunt my travel. Helicopters can also play a role in guarding roads as they can more easily provide cover to an area.

        My .02 on defense.
        Last edited by BaneII; 11-07-2005, 12:34 PM.
        -33rd- BaneII
        Smokers & Jokers

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Lightning Warfare

          Assault *is* the definitive buggy killer. you have to bait them, oftentimes, however. what i suggest is fire at the buggy with your rifle as it approaches while you stand next to something indestructible, say, a tree or wall. let the buggy see you and entice it to try and run you over. as it approaches, switch to GL and hop behind the wall/tree/whatever. judge its speed and trajectory and as it zips by, fire a 'nade at the ground and as long as you hit in front of it, you'll more than likely destroy the buggy. as an added bonus, the driver may realize he's not going to run you over so he'll actually STOP hoping to hop out and kill you. sucker.

          and yes, engineers are great on defense. Xink and Phelan Ward were mentioned, but don't forget Robocop! the best maps for engineers to shine are the "soggy" maps, in my opinion. Songhua Stalemate is an engineers dream since you can easily defend a flag by dropping mines in the shallow water where they're not easily seen. and so the infantry will try and be stealthy and swim across to the flag, where you're waiting on the shore for them with your trusty Remington shotgun.

          i also think to disrupt the 2nd wave (armor column) TG will have to counter with a rapid assault into enemy territory for two reasons:

          1) capture their flags so once they lose the armor, it's gone

          2) an assault on their rear may cause their commander to pull his forces back. if he/she does NOT, as long as the TG rear holds, the enemy will soon be faced with a double envelopment.

          i see your .02 cents sir, and i raise it to a nickel!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Lightning Warfare

            Originally posted by Coridon
            Assault *is* the definitive buggy killer. you have to bait them, oftentimes, however. what i suggest is fire at the buggy with your rifle as it approaches while you stand next to something indestructible, say, a tree or wall. let the buggy see you and entice it to try and run you over. as it approaches, switch to GL and hop behind the wall/tree/whatever. judge its speed and trajectory and as it zips by, fire a 'nade at the ground and as long as you hit in front of it, you'll more than likely destroy the buggy. as an added bonus, the driver may realize he's not going to run you over so he'll actually STOP hoping to hop out and kill you. sucker.
            You missed the point and proved it at the same time. MA's buggies were not trying to run over infantry. They went behind the garage to avoid the tactic you mentioned for that very reason. They wanted to reach the rear bases and cap flags, not try to kill anyone. So what is an assault supposed to do? Can you hit a buggy driving away from you at top speed with a grenade launcher? Possible, but the AT has a way higher chance with a much longer range.

            Originally posted by Coridon
            and yes, engineers are great on defense. Xink and Phelan Ward were mentioned, but don't forget Robocop!
            Quite right, I forgot to include Robocop. I have been a victim of his engineer skills. OP edited to include him.
            -33rd- BaneII
            Smokers & Jokers

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Lightning Warfare

              it'd be nice if there weren't so many bugs with AT and jeeps, though. 2 or 3 times last night i fired a rocket that went straight through the windshield of a hmmwv and out the back. >:(
              [TG]epheneh

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Lightning Warfare

                Originally posted by BaneII
                MA's buggies were not trying to run over infantry. They went behind the garage to avoid the tactic you mentioned for that very reason. They wanted to reach the rear bases and cap flags, not try to kill anyone.
                ah, i see! in that case, it's crucial to have that APC up and facing north (at the woodyard). better yet, have the commander drop a supply crate behind it so it can self heal and rearm. the gun on the APCs is a real buggy-killer. and as you mentioned, someone MUST be on the TOW or at least be able to hop on it at a moments notice. if the APC uses its gun on the buggy, it should have a rocket ready and firing in unison with the TOW, should be able to take out the first piece of armor at range. hopefully a second piece is taken down before the armor column reaches the CP, so perhaps you're only dealing with one or two pieces of heavy machinery when they roll onto the flag. how big, exactly, were these convoys? i'm having a hard time believing those TOWs weren't manned. it just boggles my mind. last week on Dragon Valley i manned the TOW on the "hill" and stopped all the armor trying to come across the bridge to the north for some time. finally the US moved snipers into position so every time i hopped on the TOW i had a round go through my forehead. curse you, snipers!!!

                EDIT: oh yeah, it's a good idea to have engineer have mines "hidden" around the flag area so when a tank rolls up, you can either toss a 'nade or shoot an M203 in the general area and the mines will blow up the tank. and if that doesn't work, have the assaults use smoke grenades to blind the armor so either engineers and/or spec ops can place new mines/c4 and try again. it's one great thing about mines being destructable now.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Lightning Warfare

                  Well, I prefer Assault for killing buggies because he can also double as an effective infantry killer. Also, the Assault's launched grenade has decent splash damage, so even a "close" shot will likely mortally wound a buggy (if not destroy it). Then, if the infantry bails, he can finish them off with his rifle.

                  With the AT kit, you pretty much have to make a direct hit with a rocket on a buggy to damage it (which is certainly possible), but you're much less effective against infantry. And shouldn't the ATs be concentrating on the enemy armor anyway?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Lightning Warfare

                    I was going to make my own thread on this, but this seems as good a place to post as any. :)

                    If we didn't know about speed and aggressiveness before, the MA game should have really driven it home for us. In my experience we at TG have three big weaknesses.

                    1. We play a very static game. It seems our common strategies revolve around taking important CPs and defending them. This can work on maps like Zatar where there are only a few CPs and there's ticket bleed, since we're good at defense, but on a lot of the CP heavy flags it spreads us out thin. I don't command often, but when I do I find I can leave important CPs more or less completely undefended since the other team doesn't bother trying to cap them. They're all defending and making token attacks, just like our team. The regular success of Deveran's squad, and the MA scrim shows how effective the opposite strategy can be. A best defense is a good offense, no?

                    2. We're slow. Very slow. While flying against MA their blackhawks were almost always flying. I think our helo was grounded for most of the game. There's been discussion in the past about having dedicated helo transport squads, although those have never really gone anywhere. This is something we should consider doing in the next scrim - a single pilot who makes moving squads around the map his full time job.

                    3. We're bad at attacking. In my experience we get obsessed with wiping out the defenders of a flag before capping it. This rarely works. We should practice moving everybody onto the flag and setting up a hasty defense around it. Defenders can be cleared once the flag has been turned (which will happen quickly if you have 4 or 5 people on it).

                    That MA game has inspired me to do more SLing and try COing more. :D

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Lightning Warfare

                      Originally posted by jepzilla

                      3. We're bad at attacking. In my experience we get obsessed with wiping out the defenders of a flag before capping it. This rarely works. We should practice moving everybody onto the flag and setting up a hasty defense around it. Defenders can be cleared once the flag has been turned (which will happen quickly if you have 4 or 5 people on it).
                      All 3 of your points are excellent but this one hits hardest for me. I've seen it happen way too often and if you don't get that flag turned you're just wasting your time.
                      Some more on this here: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=59417

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Lightning Warfare

                        Originally posted by jepzilla

                        3. We're bad at attacking. In my experience we get obsessed with wiping out the defenders of a flag before capping it. This rarely works. We should practice moving everybody onto the flag and setting up a hasty defense around it. Defenders can be cleared once the flag has been turned (which will happen quickly if you have 4 or 5 people on it).
                        All of your points are valid. But this is something we need to do.
                        A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                        "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Lightning Warfare

                          Dumdedum...
                          http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthr...366#post362442

                          [conduct][volun][drill][sg-c1][tpf-c1]
                          |TG-2nd|munchkin
                          Nec aspera terrent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Lightning Warfare

                            Originally posted by munchkin
                            :icon14:

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Lightning Warfare

                              Originally posted by jepzilla
                              1. We play a very static game. It seems our common strategies revolve around taking important CPs and defending them.
                              I don't hang around once I've completed an attack. Once the mop-up is done, I look for opportunities and move out, before I eat an arty strike. If you're CO and you want me to stick, switch the icon to defense once the CP turns, or let me know by VOIP in the initial orders. Otherwise I assume it's the next squad's job to hold the point. (I always see blue spawn once we've got it.)

                              The case where I don't move on another flag is when I take a choke point, in which case I move up the road and set up an ambush for the counter-attack. Or I'll stick if the CP's are close together (like Karkand east) and the counter-attacks are continuous.

                              2. We're slow. Very slow. While flying against MA their blackhawks were almost always flying. I think our helo was grounded for most of the game. There's been discussion in the past about having dedicated helo transport squads, although those have never really gone anywhere. This is something we should consider doing in the next scrim - a single pilot who makes moving squads around the map his full time job.
                              I didn't realize that wasn't SOP. If the craphawk is there, I take it in for HALO (assuming I can get my squad to jump ;)). It's faster than a jeep because it can go over the obstacles. If the CP looks defended, I'll dive on it and unload.

                              3. We're bad at attacking. In my experience we get obsessed with wiping out the defenders of a flag before capping it. This rarely works. We should practice moving everybody onto the flag and setting up a hasty defense around it. Defenders can be cleared once the flag has been turned (which will happen quickly if you have 4 or 5 people on it).
                              I've noticed that while I don't get "best weapon" stats much, I do tend to get a lot of flag caps and assists.

                              That MA game has inspired me to do more SLing and try COing more. :D
                              We can always use more CO's. I'd do it but I like SL'ing too much. :D
                              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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