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  • What to do when attacking a strong defense?

    When I squadlead, and we are attacking, I will sometimes get the feeling that me and my squad are going to be unable to cap a flag. This coul happen when we are outnumbered, the enemy has a better position to defend from, or when they have more armor etc. Lately I've been giving the order to my squad in such a situation to NOT go to the flag, but to find good firing positions, and concentrate on staying alive and killing enemys. Sometimes, another squad will join the attack, and then this tactic works great, as I make sure to time a push of my squad with the attack of the other squad, and I will make sure that we attack from different sides.

    However, when no other squad joins the attack, I am unsure of wether this tactic is useful. Im sure it is useful in some situations.

    I'd like to no if other SL's sometimes give the order to not go for the flag they are close to, and if so in what situations do you think it is useful tactic?

  • #2
    Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

    This is coming from of a squad member who is green to SLing but has spent a large amount of time around good SLs and COs.

    This tactic is, IMO, useless, even with support. They need you Charging with them, not on a hill a couple hundred yards away. If you are defending a position and are comfortable enough to send a couple guys to harass an enemy position, go ahead, but if you are given orders to attack a flag, go for it all the way or not at all. If you just sit around the enemy position you are wasting a valuable resource, your squad.

    If an attack is not working, it is the attacker's fault. Lots of hostile armor? Get armor of your own. Have guys spawn in the rear and bring up armor or have them spawn AT. ALWAYS mandate kits, never leave the squad to pick all their own kits, just like you should always TELL someone to do whatever. If you don't you get three guys all doing what you wanted one guy to do. Micromanage your squad.

    To many hostiles? Well, you can:

    1. Get armor in the above way.

    2. Get an arty strike.

    3. A combination of the above and below.

    Is the enemy squad just too tenacious? Cant dislodge em'? Get as much armor as you can and roll in from diferent directions. Try to sneak in as far as possible. Take an assualt on the TV station on Sharqi, for example. If you can get loads of guys on the flag as fast as possible, taking it and THEN killing the enemy, that is the way to do it.

    NEVER let it turn into a front. Take it FAST and QUIET. Kill the enemy AFTER you take the flag. If you fail they will dig in and it will be ten times as hard to dislodge them as before.

    I CANNOT EXPRESS HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO BE FAST AND, TO A LESSER EXTENT, QUIET!

    This is also coming from a 42nd guy, and the 42nd are(I suppose this is technically opinion) the best defensive squad in the game.

    And thats my $.02. :)
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

    "O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

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    • #3
      Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

      If your team is in a good position (AKA you have bleed, etc) this can be useful. If the enemy is down to one or two flags, it's usually suicide to send a squad charging into their massed forces. By maintaining a forward defense/perimeter, it's possible to make it very tough for them to break out. However, if you're bleeding, there's no advantage to hanging back and trading shots.

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      • #4
        Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

        I normally wave a white flag for parley and to negotiate the terms of our surrender. Then when the enemy has come out to the table to witness the signing, blowup the hidden C4 under the table and proceed to capture the flag.
        -33rd- BaneII
        Smokers & Jokers

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        • #5
          Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

          Theres only a few times where this is useful

          Your bleeding them. Your objective is to keep the enemy pinned down. Generally, this order will come from a CO, but if a SL notices he has bleed and is outnumbered, pinning them down at a base can be effective. Just make sure they cant get through you and cap a flag easily, or that another squad is back defending.

          Another reason this can be useful is if your up against more than 1 squad. If your squad is staying alive well enough, and is attracting the attention of 2 squads, thats a small victory. That means another squad on your team is having it real easy. Once other flags have been taken due to the 2 enemy squads being pinned down, one of those squads may move out, giving your squad the oppurtunity to cap.

          Other than that, i cant think of a reason to attack a flag without the intent of capturing it.

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          • #6
            Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

            What I find often works is for one squad to attack a flag while a second squad covers them. The plan is that the first squad will put everyone but their SL on the flag. The second squad will cover them. If the first squad goes down the second squad will attack. I think this works because the squads get a few advantages:

            1) They know where the defenders are when the second squad attacks (if they haven't killed them).
            2) The enemy can only spawn on the Squad Leader.
            3) The second squad can revive the members of the first squad and get 5+ people on the flag so it may be captured faster then it was neutralized.
            4) The second squad only has to keep the flag neutral for 20ish seconds before the first squad rejoins the attack. They keep pressure on the flag while both are able to regroup and attack at full strength.
            5) The enemy may try to recap the flag and the role of attacker/defender switches with the second squad now defending while the enemy tries to attack and hopefully gets obliterated like the first squad.

            That's my strategy. Break through the enemy line, neutralize the flag and then kill the enemy as they try to reclaim the flag or hunt down their squad leader. I think it works but a lot of the squads on TG have gotten gun-shy. In my opinion way too much time is being spent looking at flags as opposed to standing under them.


            Edit:
            I also think sending one squad to shoot up a flag is a good tactic, depending on the squad. I noticed once that Mantis' Sniper squad was shooting up the hill flag on Mashtuur. He did quite a bit of damage to the defending squad before they finally got mad and rushed the snipers. The Squad Leader saw them leave and we captured their flag while they ran through the hills. In most cases a sniper squad will draw a detachment away from the flag or at least get quite a few of them to switch to sniper making it easier to rush a flag. I bet this would also work if you used ATs to kill enemy vehicles as they spawned.
            Last edited by Arf; 02-04-2006, 03:00 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

              Originally posted by Arf
              I think it works but a lot of the squads on TG have gotten gun-shy. In my opinion way too much time is being spent looking at flags as opposed to standing under them.
              I've noticed this as well. It makes defence very, very easy, since they let it turn into a front, instead of rushing.

              As I said: Fast and sneaky wins the day!
              War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

              "O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

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              • #8
                Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                Usually when attacking a strong defense I find the best strategy is to shoot the bad guys until the flag turns white, then shoot more bad guys until your team has the flag. I can understand why you want to hang back instead of doing your job (it feels much safer that way), but you can't turn a flag like that.

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                • #9
                  Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                  Don't Underestimate the power of a few smoke grenades...

                  The enemy on the defence is usually in fireing points around the flag, and not in flag range... pop a few smoke from either your assult personel or if your fortunate from the armour your in (the two smokes from an armour are wonderful for unloading a squad...

                  once the smoke is dropped, your squad of 4 armound the flag only needs seconds to nuturalize the flag... your spawning position as squad leader will often be forgotten as drastic measures are taken at the flag by the enemy...

                  I don't think smioke gets the credit or useage it needs in games... yes it lets the enemy know your near... but if they dont kill you, their flag is going down...

                  PS. To counter this, if you see an enemy using smoke, I find the best thing to do us throw nades into the heaviest part of the smoke and hope you get lucky...
                  "Victory without Honor, is Pointless..."
                  "I regret that I only have 1 life per spawn, to give to my team...."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                    If you don't think you can take the flag then don't try. If this is because the enemy squad is too strong to dislodge then you either need to stay quiet until they move on (a great tip for defence is regrouping off of a taken flag and then waiting a minute), or to try something sneaky.

                    No defence is impenetrable, but some do take a bit of work. Obviously the CO's arty strike is a very useful tool. However you are not seeking to kill people with this in tems of numbers (they will be back alive before you can grey the flag). What you are looking to do is remove those guys that are primary in defence of a flag. Notable enginerrs (or their mined areas), Spec Ops, and AT. If these guys are not available as you proceed with your attack then you are ahead. The focus here is that they need to either be alive at a certain point (as you roll over their c4, or as you expose yourself to AT missiles if in a vehicle assault), or their defences take time to set (like a c4 flag trap).

                    This sort of stress is what allows you to beat defences. You have to make the defenders do the work. A normal assault consists of 6 guys rushing at 6 defenders. The assaulting guys need to do everything, and thus it is their decisions that are prone to mistakes. You need to out-think and out-fox the enemy defending SL. Make him place a call to do something that is wrong. If all he has to do is tell his guys to keep shooting at you.. well you're not going to get anywhere. You need to stress the defence, overcome their traps, make them work for it. Gradually manoeuvre into a position where the defence do not have the control and then push them out.

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                    • #11
                      Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                      If the defense is strong and you are quite certain you can't take the position without help, you should do as you said, and communicate the situation back to the CO. If the CO NEEDS a flag, he can either send help for your attack, or move you elsewhere. If not, he can keep you applying pressure to the flag you are at, preventing the squad on defense from moving elsewhere and hopefully collecting more kills than they are.

                      The other option is to be a little more stealthy and see if they will move out. Move toward the target, but don't engage, in the hopes that they will move out some or all of their defenders.
                      Peace through fear... since 1947!

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                      • #12
                        Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                        All good suggestions and I think a lot of this depends on the flag you are attacking. With complex attacks, you need to call out priorities before the flag begins and recognize that some flags require a set of tasks to be done before you are going to be successful.

                        If they have armor that respawns at this flag, call out that armor as a first priority AND have a guy there near the respawn to pick it up when it comes back. Then use that to clean up. Do not keep the same Respawn point as SL if you need multiple waves, or else you will lose surprise. Spot everything and call out exactly when you need bodies on that flag.

                        Great comments by those above me.

                        Lucky Shot

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                        • #13
                          Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                          thanks for the replies.

                          Some good advice here.

                          Especially liked the idea about the smoke. It can be veryconfusing if used well.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                            Originally posted by BigGaayAl
                            When I squadlead, and we are attacking, I will sometimes get the feeling that me and my squad are going to be unable to cap a flag. This coul happen when we are outnumbered, the enemy has a better position to defend from, or when they have more armor etc. Lately I've been giving the order to my squad in such a situation to NOT go to the flag, but to find good firing positions, and concentrate on staying alive and killing enemys. Sometimes, another squad will join the attack, and then this tactic works great, as I make sure to time a push of my squad with the attack of the other squad, and I will make sure that we attack from different sides.

                            However, when no other squad joins the attack, I am unsure of wether this tactic is useful. Im sure it is useful in some situations.

                            I'd like to no if other SL's sometimes give the order to not go for the flag they are close to, and if so in what situations do you think it is useful tactic?
                            This could be a valid strategy in certain (rare) situations, but this shouldn't be anywhere near a SOP for a SL. I've used it only a few times myself, but only when a)we're bleeding them, b) we're outnumbered with no help (another squad, air, assets) available, c)charging their position will almost certainly result in our deaths and loss of points, and d)I've told the CO those things and my intent.

                            The most important thing is letting the CO know why you're not attacking and what you recommend instead.

                            As far how I attack hard defenses, it's basically trying different angles to tip the scales in your favor like Wulfyn said. Try one tactic (e.g. mount a surprise attack) and if that doesn't work, try something else. If after 4 or 5 tries you can't cap the flag, then you've by that point lost ~30 tickets and should consider another objective.
                            Beatnik

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                            • #15
                              Re: What to do when attacking a strong defense?

                              Has anyone just tried bombarding the flag with shells from the tanks? That seems almost as effective as arty, but you can direct your shells. 1 person sniper to spot, 3 people in tanks, SL as engineer or support to rearm.

                              The key is to get in fast, like said before. If they know you are coming, they will dig themselves in roofs and tanks and such. Try it only a few times, trying to flank and such, and then just try to draw their attention away from the flag, allowing other squads the oppourtunity to attack.

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