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  • Tanks and engineers

    Something that's been bugging me for a while is how we insist on making an engineer drive the squad's tank. The SL will say, and I'm sure I've done it too, "Joe Bob, spawn engineer and take the tank." What good does the engineer do when he is sitting inside the tank as the tank is getting shot at? Wouldn't he be better off outside the tank repairing it? I'm thinking of all the times I've had to back off, pop smoke, and try to repair as my squad carries on the assault. Wouldn't the squad be better off if someone else was driving the tank and I was outside of it keeping it healthy? The eningeer outside the tank would also help maintain close up security for the tank to keep the sneaky spec ops dudes away. Maybe, instead, the tank driver should be a medic to keep the engineer healthy, or support to provide a roaming ammo crate (after, all, does the squad need suppressing fire from a support gun if they have a tank?).

    Another thing about tanks while I'm blabbering.. how can a squad better support its tank? We all know that the tank can clear out a bunch of infantry to help the squad out, but how can the squad help the tank out? It's gotta be a two way street. Too many times I've felt like my squad has left me alone in my tank, thinking I'm invincible, only to be blown up by C4 or killed by a couple AT rockets. What should I be asking my squad to do so that I can stay alive and help them out longer? How should a squad's behavior change when they become mechanized?

    I'm mainly concerned about maps where vehicles are somewhat limited, not on maps where there's enough armor for everyone to have two vehicles.. but, discuss whatever.
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  • #2
    Re: Tanks and engineers

    Hey, read the 1stMIP unit cards...oh wait, you probably don't have access to the 1stMIP team forum.

    Well, all your answers are there, Perry!!!

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    • #3
      Re: Tanks and engineers

      Even an army of one needs someone to change the treads on his tank every now and then ;)

      But, if you have information to share that would help the community have better games, then why not share it?
      Last edited by perry; 03-20-2006, 06:44 PM. Reason: subscribing to thread
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      • #4
        Re: Tanks and engineers

        http://www.tacticalwiki.com/index.ph...OP:_Unit_Cards ;)


        edit: wait - what? i just read that card, but I guess I don't have the secret decoder ring cause I don't get the tank/engineer connection

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        • #5
          Re: Tanks and engineers

          Good thread perry. I do see this problem quite a bit and tanks are lost way too easily. An operational tank is much more important than an extra infantry man on the ground. So having an engineer constantly repairing the tank goes a long way toward an efficient attack or defense. Robocop will easily show you how to properly do this.

          Also very helpful is tactically placed supply boxes. I will give an example. If I am attacking the Power Plant from the Backyard on Mashtuur and a tank is in the squad I will usually do the following. I will call in a supply drop on the bridge right as we are moving in. I will then instruct the tank to move into a position so he is protecting the supply box. With the position he is in and a constant ability to be repaired that tank is now almost undefeatable. He will be able to see any possible flank to get him and will constantly keep the enemy pinned down while the infantry move in and finish them off.
          |TG-12th|mantis

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          • #6
            Re: Tanks and engineers

            Originally posted by perry
            But, if you have information to share that would help the community have better games, then why not share it?
            I thought it was common sense to have an engineer in the turret, not driving the tank itself if you have just one piece of armor. There just aren't too many people you can convince "No really, I know I'm an engineer, but YOU drive the tank..."

            Things change when you have several pieces of armor, though.

            Seriously, it makes more than perfect sense to stay outside and repair if you're an engineer, but just having a random driver operating the tank means they're likely to:

            1) drive crazy and run over you
            2) when they hear a "lock" tone, they pull forward or backward just as fast as they can and leave you exposed with a wrench in your hand and your pants down, since you were using the armor for cover. You die from small arms fire and they soon die because they don't have anyone to repair them.

            I've rarely had success as an engineer trying to convince just anyone to trust me and that I'll keep them alive, but it's 1stMIP SOP when we squad up.

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            • #7
              Re: Tanks and engineers

              step 1: press B - tell tanker, you're with them, so don't drive a mile away
              step 2: repair from corner of tank away from enemy = you don't get run-over and tank shields you from small-arms fire

              easy :D

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              • #8
                Re: Tanks and engineers

                Originally posted by Coridon
                2) when they hear a "lock" tone, they pull forward or backward just as fast as they can and leave you exposed with a wrench in your hand and your pants down, since you were using the armor for cover. You die from small arms fire and they soon die because they don't have anyone to repair them.
                This is exactly why I always keep my pants on when in battle, even if I am behind a tank.
                Peace through fear... since 1947!

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                • #9
                  Re: Tanks and engineers

                  Originally posted by Coridon
                  2) when they hear a "lock" tone, they pull forward or backward just as fast as they can and leave you exposed with a wrench in your hand and your pants down, since you were using the armor for cover. You die from small arms fire and they soon die because they don't have anyone to repair them.
                  Even experienced tank drivers do this. It is a delicate dance between positioning your armor for best offense/defense and not running over your engy. Practice with your driver a few rounds and you can work out a rythym.

                  Best experienes I've had in a tank have been as an engy giving support to a good driver. Whether that's repairing in a hot firefight, strafing a target in the 50cal or hitting an ambitious AT in the head with the shotgun, it's good fun.
                  In game handle: Steel Scion
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                  • #10
                    Re: Tanks and engineers

                    The engineer can climb on the tank and hide behind the turret. Here he can still repair easily, and when the tank backs up the engineer is still riding him like a cowboy. Generally though, most engineers would stand right behind the tank and it would get messy. If im squad leading i usually just tell the engineer to get in the tank to prevent the teamkills and the armor having no engineer for a period of time. If it was a scrim where the teamwork is usually very high, i would have the support guy in the tank with the engineer on top.

                    Of course, if you have 2 or more armors, engineers should man up the vehicles. And icky, please keep your pants on 24/7. Nobody wants to see that...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tanks and engineers

                      1st MIP Standard Vehicle Operating Procedure

                      1) Get your assigned vehicle
                      2) Find a good cover (stay in garage, under a tree, between or near buildings, away from the flag)
                      3) Report to SL. Ex: “Bravo One, in APC, watching southwest”
                      4) When under heavy fire, fall back and use smoke as cover
                      5) Request repairs/ammo when needed
                      6) Go to vehicle repsawn point, wait and retake the same vehicle when it is destroyed.

                      All these steps seem very obvious but just wanted to share it anyway.

                      Also, typically we assign one fire team as infantry and the other as armor. Bravo (with two members; B1 and B2) is the default armor unit. B2 has engineer kit and when there is only one armor, B2 stays close to B1 in armor and provides continuous repair support.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tanks and engineers

                        Can i just say how pleased i am that people like the MIP are willing to divulge their hard thought out and well practiced tactics and procedures. It is very refreshing that you are so selfless in making available these resources. I know i for one am trying to pillage everything i can and turn it back on you and the unsuspecting. :) Its this sort of knowledge that will improve the quality of tactical play on TG.



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                        • #13
                          Re: Tanks and engineers

                          I've found having a repair truck(so to speak), that is a FAV with an engineer, move around with a dual role of minelayer and repairman works quite well. I've done that for myself a couple of times and on Karkand this is really efficient epecially if you are on the Mec side trying to hold the US back to their UCB. If the tankdriver spawns as support(wich alongside medic is a good class for tanks) you have the benefit of restocking mines when repairing the tank.
                          --
                          VI VI VI - the number of the beast

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tanks and engineers

                            Originally posted by JimmyTwoHand
                            Can i just say how pleased i am that people like the MIP are willing to divulge their hard thought out and well practiced tactics and procedures.
                            BTW, John pretty much comes up with an idea for a SOP and lays it on the table for us to discuss. We argue the pros and cons, tweak the idea, or let it die.

                            I'm not really worried about 1stMIP SOPs being used directly against us, because to use a lot of these standard procedures requires training, mutual understanding and trust in what you'll be doing and what the person next to you will be doing in a certain situation. You put together a pick-up squad of the best BF2 players and there will still probably be a lot of chatter about who should do what and who should be positioned where, what kits are still needed, etc. To get certain procedures down requires training, which takes away from "playing" time.

                            I would imagine people not currently rostered in in-house squads, and some people rostered in some of the loosely knit squads probably don't get that sort of training. 1stMIP...in case anyone wasn't sure...tightly knit...

                            The only bad thing I see from disclosing our SOPs is someone reading them and then recognizing something unfolding and announce "there a 1stMIP tank over there pinning us down...expect infantry assault...", etc. I commend anyone who takes the time to try and comprehend and anticipate what we'll do next, though, in all honesty...

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tanks and engineers

                              Originally posted by Bommando
                              Just kidding. I have always been of the opinion that the 1st are the best drilled squad TG has to offer. It's like a burglar who sees one house with dogs in the backyard and another without. If you see big scary dogs at the CP you are about to attack, best to go next door where the pickings are easier. That's usually how I feel about a CP defended by the 1st.
                              Lol ! Thank you for the "kind" (big scary dogs? :) ) words Bom. I just want to make one thing clear though. It may sound very strange to some of you guys but we always put experience above the competition. Basic idea of a typical 1st MIP game is "Lets simulate/role-play a real life military unit with an assigned mission to accomplish". Everything, from radio comm to movement and maneuvers is based on this. Our SOPs are geared toward "increase realism and immersion" rather than "win the game, TG or non-TG style". Of course there is an "effectiveness" factor to be successful in the game but it is never the primary parameter. I might say we have a delicate balance between "role-playing" and "game-playing" concepts, and our position is closer to "role-playing" but not totally detached from "game-playing".

                              We enjoy serious, disciplined and organized gaming a lot because it is more immersive that way. I realize that BF2 vanilla is not the best game for this type of play and that's why we enjoy Tac Mod a lot.

                              Anyway, this is something I always wanted to make clear about 1st MIP. If there is any team to be afraid of here, they are the ones with high "game-playing" preference. There is no threat from old guys like me with dying reflexes ;)

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