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  • Stats

    With the kickstarter having persistent stats as on of the objectives there's been a fair few threads created on the squad forums about their place within Squad as a game.

    Now engaging all rosy eye tintedness. TG PR was the place to play, and I'd like to know your opinions on the matter because I sometimes wonder if I'm not with the crowd on this one.

    Cheers,

    Animal
    AnimalMother
    Ex TG-31st LR
    "Is it the 31st policy to have hott women as their avatars? Because if so that's a pretty baddass policy." - Pvt. brokeback
    sigpic

    Arte et Marte

  • #2
    Re: Stats

    I see no value in them and would rather that the DEV team spent their energy on other, more pressing needs like vehicles, game features, etc. Not sure if I'm in the majority on this one or not, but I have a feeling a lot of the old PR guard feel the same way.

    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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    • #3
      Re: Stats

      Persistent stats lead to stats chasers and stats chasers are toxic. That's all there is to it.

      It only takes one or two guys who think that time played or k/d are important in a match and for them to berate people not up to their standards to really ruin the mood on what is already often only tenuously fun in the first place.

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      • #4
        Re: Stats

        If I had the choice it would be no persistent stats, in teamwork based games individual stats can really warp peoples playstyles. For me the key is making sure players have a sense of win/loss on a team level and people in true support roles are as valued as the high k/d guy on the frontline. Stats could be used to reinforce good teamplay behavior but rarely does.
        Last edited by Squinty; 06-23-2015, 09:07 PM. Reason: typo

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        • #5
          Re: Stats

          It all depends on what stats are being tracked. Look at any sport, they have stats you can follow whether it be by team or by individual players. I think this should be looked at as a sport where teams and players get to have stats. I'm not saying that every time you play should count towards stats but it would be nice to have the option to collect them during tournaments and the like.

          Like it was said earlier kill death ratio is not a worthy stat for this game. Now if you had a hit/miss ratio where it showed how many times you damaged something or some one or even better a ticket gain loss ratio where it show how many tickets you have lost your team and how many you made the other team lose, or how many people spawned off your FOBs and rally points, or how many people you revived or healed, or how many ammo crates did you drop that got used. Those stats would be a bit more useful in tournaments where you can reward people at the end and give them a special slap on the back for a good job. Yes, I'm saying that stats should only be available at the end of a game and not during.

          With all that said I agree with Dispo on this, I would rather have the DEVs working on the more pressing needs. I also know that you need to plan ahead to incorporate ideas so they can be implemented more easily at a later date. So as long as they do the bare minimum with stats and push on the more pressing needs, I'll be okay with it.


          A good leader requires both character and strategy. If he is to be without one, let it be strategy. - General Rick Hilliar, Former Canadian Chief of Defence

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          • #6
            Re: Stats

            Stats are fine as long as they are stored locally, unable to be compiled into a comparison table/leaderboard and are just there for personal appraisal/review.

            I dont really have a problem with someone knowing their k/d ratio is 3.7, as long as they don't get to see that it only puts them in 1382732 place in the world or it's 1.9 better than someone on their friends list or whatever.
            Knowing any kind of stat so you can improve on it or your gameplay is fine... Just take the leaderboards and comparisons between people out of the equation if you want a truly teamwork focused game. Of course you could then argue what would be the point at all.

            I would plead to the devs; Save your time and put effort into other areas. If you really want to put stat tracking into the game, make it the very last thing you focus your efforts on and with no comparison/leaderboard implementation. Or just leave it out altogether.

            Ranked servers and games are really detrimental to the level of teamwork in the battlefield series. From the moment you log into battlelog you are bombarded with reminders of how "good" or "bad" you are, stats everywhere.
            One of my gripes is that our BF4 server ended up being ranked HC after the initial announcement that it would be tailored to the TG community and wouldn't be ranked, a decision no doubt made to encourage people to find the server and play on it due to the way the server search works, but one that ultimately hinders the quality of teamwork in comparison to the level we had on our unranked POE2 and PR servers. I know that this isn't just down to stats itself and that this statement is a thread in itself and belongs in a different forum but I feel its relevant and its my opinion.
            It matters not what letters or numbers come before my name, I'll always be 1stMIP.

            sigpic

            "It is all about being a teamplayer. Give a kitchen sink to a teamplayer and he'll find a way to support his squad with it."
            - John_CANavar (Marshall & Founder of the 1st Mechanized Infantry Platoon)

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            • #7
              Re: Stats

              Finestyle I'll pm you again about the BF4 server to avoid going off topic.

              Re Squad. Persistent stats are a bad idea on multiple levels and strangely at odds with the whole ethos of Squad as I understand it.

              SL: "Private Noobcakes, suppress that compound so that Bravo can flank on the left"

              Bravo moves up and is hacked down in a hail of unanswered enemy fire.

              SL crawls back to position.

              SL: "Private Noobcakes, why, why, you left us twisting in the wind. Bravo were wiped out, they're all dead, why.....

              Private Noobcakes: "Sorry Sir, couldn't do it, suppressing would have tanked my accuracy figures really badly. I can't afford to be shooting at anything that I can't boom hedshot lolz"

              Very strange goal to include, bit baffling really.


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              • #8
                Re: Stats

                Originally posted by Wicks View Post

                Re Squad. Persistent stats are a bad idea on multiple levels and strangely at odds with the whole ethos of Squad as I understand it.

                .
                I would agree with you if the stats collected are the same as Battlefield stats. I want to see stats that would reflect the whole picture not just basic kill death and accuracy stats. In PR they are limited on what stats they can use and display, with Squad they have access to the whole engine and can tailor stats to reflect the game play they want to see. Stats could be used to reinforce teamwork and shun lone wolf K/D nazis. It all depends on what stats are gathered. For instance say they gather stats on crate drop use percentage. A logistic roll type player would love to show off those kinds of stats and it does not deter from team work.


                A good leader requires both character and strategy. If he is to be without one, let it be strategy. - General Rick Hilliar, Former Canadian Chief of Defence

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Stats

                  I'd argue that stats always detract from teamwork and general gameplay because they become a behavioural motivator as opposed to the situation/present team needs. Personal opinion/experience.


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                  • #10
                    Re: Stats

                    I did some extensive experimentation/testing many years ago with how stats affect gameplay. Over the course of two years I modified how stats were presented for a specific title and then monitored gameplay to see how the availability of those stats changed how people played. In spite of what people would tell me their motivations were, simple changes in how the stats were collected and displayed DRASTICALLY changed how they played the game. In some cases, I don't think people were even aware of how they changed behavior in a stat-tracked environment. Not only did I change how stats were collected and presented over time, but I also tracked IP addresses accessing the stats and correlated those with IPs that connected to the game servers which yielded some very interesting results.

                    In the end, the best compromise I could find was collecting stats, but removing certain elements such as Kills/Deaths (which naturally included K:D), all ability to rank players based on any given metric. (IE: Being able to sort views of all players based on things like individual weapon accuracy). Basically; I turned the stats engine into a system where a player could look up their own performance with no ability to compare against others.
                    Last edited by Apophis; 06-24-2015, 09:40 AM.
                    Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Stats

                      I think the input all of you have is great, and you all have terrific points. However, has anyone spoken with the developers for clarification or suggestions? I've messaged them before on the squad forums and always received a response. I think some of well standing TG members (like the ones here) definitely have a platform in the developers' book, and very well thought out reasoning behind their contemplations.

                      I would love to see these suggestions implemented, especially ridding the Squad world of comparative leaderboards, and I think this topic is grave enough (due to its potential game-breaking ability) to approach them about in a gracious, inquisitive manner at least.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Stats

                        In addition stats without context, which they often lack inherently, are utterly meaningless. Ironically games like PR and Squad are so nuanced and so much of their worth based on intangibles that are entirely situational that stats and stat tracking are ortless.

                        How do you measure teamwork, timimg, decision making, selflessness, ability to follow orders, effrctive suppression, battlefield awareness etc. How do you measure statistically whether or not you can trust someone to watch East even when there is gunfire West. You can't.

                        How do you compare kills accrued on an irrelevant bflag vs less kills at critical moments that decide whole battles. How do you judge the player who always shoots (often giving away your position) vs the player who keeps his cool and moves tactically to a better position. Numbers won't help there.

                        The only way is to play with the individuals and word of mouth. The rest is just meaningless.


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                        • #13
                          Re: Stats

                          I don't see how there's any place for this in Squad, and I'm honestly more than a bit confused where this is coming from.

                          Even something as seemingly wholesome and all-encompassing as Win Rate, I've seen result in cynical tryhards who harass players they consider to be letting the team down, or even lambasting someone for not pulling out a win when they were the last man standing. I've seen multiple medics sprinting into the open, into gunfire, to try to up their revive count before the next guy gets it.

                          The worst thing to me though is that... Even though I know it's foolish and wrong, I care about my stats. Maybe it's just my nature, to always evaluate and compare numbers, but even in Planetside 2, where accuracy rate means almost nothing (and I don't think it's even visible to other people), I've found myself ceasing suppression fire because of that nagging voice in my head complaining about my weapon stats. It takes a conscious effort to overcome it. Maybe it's a bit much to expect a game to compensate for my failing, but I don't want to see the stats!

                          I'm not sure there's merit in most of the usual statistics anyway. If it's anything like PR, there'll be way too many variables to be able to evaluate your performance based on generic stats compared to a proper AAR.
                          Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                          Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

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                          • #14
                            Re: Stats

                            Bottom line for me...

                            Stats are an ugly thing and their comparative sparceness in PR was one significant factor in making it a 'beautiful' game.

                            They have no place in an immersive, realism based teamwork focused game. Save that for the pseudo sports shooters where the individual is the most important in the developers mind.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stats

                              Seems as though we're in agreement: stats are not conducive to a team/objective based game. This is good. The only stats that matter are if you did something to help your team win, and that probably cannot be measured anyway. You could go 41-0 with a 67% accuracy, but if you did that lone-wolfing and not helping to hold or capture objectives then what good are you really? How do they measure a statistic for creating a series of spawn points for a team to be able to apply continuous pressure on an objective or to keep reinforcements coming to hold an objective? What stat measures how many supply crates you drop to keep the ammo flowing in an extended fire fight? I don't see how those stats would be calculated, but I can see how each of those are critical functions that support the team and help your team to achieve an objective, and that's the only thing that matters on TG.

                              "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

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