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Infantry Fundamentals - Flanking, engaging etc

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Noyava View Post

    I don't seem to have a copy of that handy. I'm sure it's good though.
    Da Googlez n' Bing are yer friend.

    http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Pu...%20Squad_1.pdf .

    No need to thank me.

    Comment


    • #17
      BigGaayAl

      I think the lmgs will improve soon with the impending update. However in the meantime I think the saw could benefit with being further back when suppressing, use area effect.


      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Celt View Post

        Da Googlez n' Bing are yer friend.

        http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Pu...%20Squad_1.pdf .

        No need to thank me.
        You're a salt sea dog aren't ya? :)

        I'll send you a cookie as thanks. COD. lol :)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post

          The RPK has such a small magazine it's a lot harder to sustain fire enough.
          Indeed. They need to put in the RPD for Militia/Insurgents and maybe the PKP for Russia. If we go the PKP route though, we begin the weapons creep and people would demand the -240 shortly thereafter. But I digress.

          As for the RPKs on the Russian side, think of this... how many SAWs do 'Murrican squads get? One right? How many RPKs for the Ruskies? Two slots if I am not mistaken. Granted, that cuts into the AT roles, but hey... the RPK does have a slightly larger mag capacity than AKs. And you get two of them.

          So then, how to negate the smaller volume of fire available to the RPKs? Well, since you have 2... group them as your "Support By Fire" (SBF)element and have two communicating, team work oriented, disciplined and smart guys on them. To what end? I'm sure everyone here has heard the term "talking guns." One weapon system fires a burst, breaks triggers, and then the other follows suit. Wash, rinse, repeat. In the real world this serves several purposes, one being heat management, but in game that's not a factor on anything other than 'Murrican .50s as far as I know. Here talking the guns provides continuous, almost unbroken fire on the enemy position. Rather than have both guns blazing away at the same time and then silence as they both reload, you have one gun going nearly all the time.

          So, while it takes double the Russian personnel to achieve the same effect, the effect none the less is the same. Oh, and I'm pretty sure the reload times on the RPKs are significantly shorter than the SAW, so the gun is back into action sooner.

          So there's something to try I guess. Group your RPK gunners in a SBF buddy team, use their combined firepower as you would a -249 and have at it. Just be sure to talk the guns and keep up the volume of fire on the objective.

          As a side note... Expendable was on the SAW last night (28 March) and was making noticeable efforts to utilize some of the concepts in this thread. I think everyone there can agree that it was highly effective. We dominated and/or held out as a single squad most of the time thanks in no small part due to his AR work. No finer example is the pivot, assault and recapture of Radio when they started back capping us. And who ever was on the -203 was masterful as well, dropping 'nades INSIDE the rooftop door ways. It was freaking beautiful and textbook.

          regards,
          Celt

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Noyava View Post

            You're a salt sea dog aren't ya? :)

            I'll send you a cookie as thanks. COD. lol :)
            MMMMMMM... cookies.

            Seriously though, there's some good shtuff in that TGU link. Consider it a complement if I say its essentially a brief regurgitation of standard U.S. Army doctrine. Not a bad thing at all.

            regards,
            Celt

            Comment


            • #21
              Talking guns is also fantastic at making it harder for the enemy to pinpoint the location of each gunner, it's confusing on a basic level.

              I like to use em split apart when ambushing a line moving parrallel to my Squad. Hit the front man with one, the tail man with the other, then work in to the middle.


              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Takker View Post

                One of my challenges has been that a lot of times, it seems that the squad that I am in gets ambushed from the front when we are in a loose column formation. It is difficult for the team to shoot without shooting through the squad members in front of them. This seems to stem a lot from the squad spawning over time and racing off instead of waiting for everyone and heading off with some sort of marching formation.
                Real world solutions for in game problems! Specifically in the situation described above (loose column):

                *Disclaimer... there is no way a PUG squad is going to be able to do any of this. A squad made up of folks who play with each other constantly and perhaps even practice some of this stuff will of course be more capable and likely to pull off what I type below.*

                If the enemy is dumb enough to pop off rounds without the entirety of the squad in the kill zone, that makes our job easier. We can talk about how and when to light off an ambush later, but for this point, suffice to say if the bad guys start the ball rolling early, that gives us opportunities. Two things needs to happen if they pop rounds on the lead element of our formation rather than waiting for the main body.

                SL reads whats happening and decides:
                1: Break Contact
                or
                2: Maneuver

                1: Break Contact (from the Column): Probably everyone here was heard or seen the "Aussie Peel" or Center Peel. On command, the #1 man or lead guy in the column does a mag dump towards the enemy to establish fire superiority. The guy behind him (#2) pops a smoke over #1's shoulder towards the enemy. #1 expends all ammo and peels right or left (SOP/training or situationally dependent) while #2 now does a mag dump towards the enemy. While this is going on, #3 in column pops smoke and prepares to mag dump while #2 peels off. The entire formation follows suit. Fall back to the last identified Rally Point, and I am not talking about the spawn point type rally points, rather an identified piece of terrain used as a position to reconsolidate on. Decide further actions there.
                As a side note, you can also peel left or right either as a maneuver to wrap an exposed flank, or to break contact laterally. But that's another discussion.

                2: Maneuver: Establish local fire superiority as described in my earlier posts while the SL assesses the situation and directs the element not in contact to maneuver... but for the love of god, NOT into the kill zone! The element in contact is essentially now the base of fire for a standard assault. This really only works if the bad guys are dumb and crack off the ambush while we have friendlies outside the kill zone.
                If they are on their A game and let the whole squad walk into the kill zone, then the only recourse left to the ambushees is the actions on close ambush described above.

                So, SLs... split second decision time. The rounds start coming at you. Assess, assess, assess and then decide. Whatever you decide though, go with it.

                As an aside, there are literally a bazillion ways to do the things we are talking about here. Even within the same units, there may be different techniques utilized by various organizations. Take the room clearing debate for example. Both limited pen and deep corner methods are tried and tested in combat. I have been trained on both and have my opinions on the value of both. But is either decidedly 'wrong'? (My argument there is it is situational dependent. Know both and go deep corner if you have to get off a street fast, use limited pen if you have the overwatch/safety/time.) Same with the stuff we are talking about here. Brits do everything a bit different than the Aussies who do it a bit different than the 'Murricans who do it ALOT different than the Ruskies who do it.... etc etc etc.

                Regards,
                Celt

                Comment


                • #23
                  Last night I expended an entire BTR worth of 30mm in suppression from about 750m against a building. Number of kills by me: 0. Number of enemy left alive in the building through the combined fires of me and my squad: 0. Did the suppression work?
                  |TG| Mannerism

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Dyslexi's video on peeling for reference. I'm sure there are others out there, but he puts in the context of a video game, so I thought it would be good to post here.



                    I'm all in favor of better unit tactics. The reality of implementing them currently, without having a regular squad of guys who have practiced together often, is a little daunting. I also need to remember to take myself off of point as SL, but this is a known flaw of my game play style for years and I'm afraid this old dog has a tough time learning new tricks. Regardless, there is great information in this thread and we would all do well to try to implement as much of it as we can during our games.

                    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
                    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

                    No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Celt View Post
                      As a side note... Expendable was on the SAW last night (28 March) and was making noticeable efforts to utilize some of the concepts in this thread. I think everyone there can agree that it was highly effective. We dominated and/or held out as a single squad most of the time thanks in no small part due to his AR work. No finer example is the pivot, assault and recapture of Radio when they started back capping us. And who ever was on the -203 was masterful as well, dropping 'nades INSIDE the rooftop door ways. It was freaking beautiful and textbook.
                      Last night's assault on Radio was a beautiful thing. It was very well done. One item to note that I experienced last night on the SAW - you only get 6 drums. I could empty 6 drums VERY quickly. It's nearly as important to have a resupply nearby for a SAW as it is for the LATs. Also, reloading the SAW takes forever.

                      Oh .. I didn't get many (if any) kills but that's the point. The SAW isn't for killing, it's for scaring.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by disposableHero View Post
                        Dyslexi's video on peeling for reference. I'm sure there are others out there, but he puts in the context of a video game, so I thought it would be good to post here.



                        I'm all in favor of better unit tactics. The reality of implementing them currently, without having a regular squad of guys who have practiced together often, is a little daunting. I also need to remember to take myself off of point as SL, but this is a known flaw of my game play style for years and I'm afraid this old dog has a tough time learning new tricks. Regardless, there is great information in this thread and we would all do well to try to implement as much of it as we can during our games.
                        Dispo,

                        Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

                        More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

                        I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

                        So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

                        You know who you are.

                        *COUGHASTACOUGH*
                        *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Celt View Post

                          Dispo,

                          Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

                          More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

                          I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

                          So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

                          You know who you are.

                          *COUGHASTACOUGH*
                          *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*
                          If you want to see what my screen looks like most of the time in an engagement, watch this: https://www.tacticalgamer.com/forum/...31#post1792131

                          :)

                          It's no wonder I die so much.

                          Anyway, back on conversation. The tactics discussed here are do-able, it is just going to take patience on the SL's part, some help from some squad members who can act as FTLs, and some cooperation from the rest of the squad. That, and a desire to not move so fast at the start until you get your cohesion down.

                          "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
                          |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

                          No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            On implementation: I think a lot can be done as soon as you have even one player you can build on; a TG guy or server veteran, that understands what you want to do.

                            The other day I ran a squad with one of the worst KDR's ever, 4-26 or something, with I think only Masterjack in the squad as a player to build on. The squad was full of new players that didn't know half the mechanics.

                            I used a tactic which I've seen on WW2 illustrations of having a single scout, and the whole squad moving in his wake very closely to me. This is a tactic I want to remember to use more because it is easy for it's effectiveness. I can see why it was used in WW2 with many very green recruits in the squads.

                            Using Masterjack in this case as eyes and ears allowed us to get within 70 meters of the objective (full of enemies) where no one fired and Masterjack was giving us good information about the defenders. Then we attacked, slightly spread out, and got slaughtered.

                            2nd time we did the same, but with the big guns on some high ground. 30mil killed the support element before we could get the assault team close. So I called the retreat for the survivors. We then fell back into defense.

                            In terms of points the round was a failure, and I felt guilty losing so many tickets for the team. But paradoxically it still felt like a great round, and it was pretty awesome gameplay. Point is you can do a lot with just a few vet players, if they support you and coach the rest with proximity voip. It doesn't always have to be complicated if we can delegate.



                            I am loving the discussion in this thread very much. I just read in the posts above it is already having an effect in our playstyle as I read in here. The kind of dynamic I see in this thread is really what can make a game, a server come alive. It's certainly inspiring to me. E.g. Wicks' posts about limited penetration have helped my cqb play a lot. And I'm surviving much longer in CQB because of it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Celt View Post

                              Dispo,

                              Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

                              More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

                              I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

                              So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

                              You know who you are.

                              *COUGHASTACOUGH*
                              *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*
                              Celt I always am testing you to be faithful and catch the incoming rounds for me while I stand and do my thing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KeithMann View Post
                                Last night I expended an entire BTR worth of 30mm in suppression from about 750m against a building. Number of kills by me: 0. Number of enemy left alive in the building through the combined fires of me and my squad: 0. Did the suppression work?
                                That it did. That was a great example of armor-infantry team coordination and individual initiative. I distinctly remember hearing someone say something to the effect of "man something was hammering that top floor" and Mannerism coming across the net and stating that was him working the 30mm.

                                Smart use of the BTR-82A's strengths (standoff precision fires beyond the threat reply range) to support an infantry assault. When things click like that, success (as was the case here) is often not far behind. We will no doubt get into an armor-infantry team coordination thread at some point.

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