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Infantry Fundamentals - Flanking, engaging etc

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  • Wicks
    started a topic [GUIDE] Infantry Fundamentals - Flanking, engaging etc

    Infantry Fundamentals - Flanking, engaging etc

    Flanking is one tool in your toolbox. The aim is to kill the enemy. That can be achieved in many ways. Flanking is one of them. Sometimes it seems like flanking ends up being the end goal for some people.

    Flanking is most effective when you have fixed the enemy. Fixing and suppressing the enemy is important as it denies them freedom of movement and keeps their heads down. This does two things. 1) It ensures your flanking element is attacking a known, static target. 2) It reduces the likelihood that your flanking element will be spotted in its movement phase.

    The above greatly increases your chances of success.

    To fix the enemy you must be firing your weapon, I know right, of course, everyone fires their weapon lol. Actually thus far that's not been my experience. In fact quite the opposite. The lack of fire at the right times and the desire to shoot at things at the wrong time is pretty strong amongst so many players.

    The obsession with stealth movement at the cost of battlefield domination in my opinion stems from the inherent selfishness of the average player and the oft touted meta (spits) of 'ninja flank all the things, all the time'.

    Again flanking is simply one type of battlefield movement, that's it. It is not the solution in every situation. This can be dependent on terrain, personnel available, position etc. It is an important tactic/manoeuvre, not the only one.

    So with flanking and stealth being apparently the predominant methodology what we have in any given engagement is Squads splitting their forces and reducing their rounds down range to facilitate movement. Often before establishing any real level of fire superiority. Couple that with the apparent reluctance to shoot at people unless it's a guaranteed kill, because that's what someone else told them.

    This is why so many engagements are so quiet and devolve down to individuals playing near hide and seek and being systematically eliminated in 1v1's, 1v2's etc. Everybody is flanking constantly and objective areas turn in to these circus whirlpools of movement. Individuals step willingly into this spinning mess and run dutifully round and round, not shooting until someone catches up with them. They don't shoot because it has been ingrained in them that shooting gives away your position and then you lose the alleged advantage that stealth grants you, at all times. Despite the fact they are regularly eliminated participating in the merry go round they persist with the strategy.

    Stealth can provide you with an advantage in certain circumstances, it is a useful tool in your toolbox. However stealthy movement has an inherent cost. The time you spend flanking and not shooting reduces the amount of rounds your squad is putting down on your enemy. During this time your squad mates who are actively engaging are under greater pressure as they do not have fire superiority. As such they are less likely to be able to engage their targets accurately and they are much more likely to take casualties.

    The enemy will enjoy fire superiority and a greater degree of freedom of movement during the entire movement phase of your flanking element. They are more likely to eliminate the part of your squad that is in the fight.

    Some people tell you suppression doesn't work. They are wrong. Effective suppression is not fire designed to miss, it's not mag dumps at 150 metres that cut down nearby telephone polls. In fact if it helps people let's not call it suppression. Let's call it engaging the enemy, because that is what it is at present. If you see the enemy and wish to flank after being engaged, return fire. Win the battle for fire superiority. Aim, attempt to kill them. If you're facing an entrenched squad they may have their whole force engaging you. As the base of fire element you need to shoot fast and accurately as you have half your force manoeuvring.

    As with many of these proven RL tactics that do translate, the issue is not with the tactic, its with the execution. If you're failing at it, you're likely doing it wrong. Shoot better, move between shots, don't pop up several times in a row from the same spot, learn to pace your shots in conjunction with the volume of fire your squad is putting out (call reloads and time your shots and own reloads accordingly). Sustained, accurate fire. If you hear your squad mate reloading up your rate of fire to cover him. If the guy next to you who was engaging a threat in the window left goes down start suppressing that point target as well. Work together, see the whole engagement picture, don't just tunnel vision on your single target.

    Much easier to kill your opponent if you fire your weapon, people should do it more often, plus the bang sound is really fun.
    Last edited by Wicks; 03-26-2017, 11:59 AM.

  • Wicks
    replied
    Awesome posts guys. Yeah getting a squad to do that as a cohesive unit can be tricky without practice, usually because people start looking around trying to work out where they are relative to everyone else as if they're worrying about formations or something (not a bad thing, its just running before you can walk).

    For me the best place to start is to simply get people thinking, as follows:

    - Am I exposed and to where. Where is hard cover and to what angles of attack does it protect me. Where is concealment, for you and the enemy.

    - Where would the enemy post up, where is their overwatch, where are their strongpoints. These are your threats

    - Maybe I've seen the enemy or been given a marker. So relative to me where would they move to when they are attempting to flank/encircle me. Now get offline, ie anticipate and relocate, They are moving. Based on their last location and your position where would they flank to. Some of their force will be there.

    - Most people are predictable. Not because they are stupid or bad players. No generally terrain will dictate position and movement patterns. Learn to read the terrain and get better at estimating travel time from A to B.

    - If you know you're squad is barrelling forward and is being somewhat shortsighted, slow down and scan beyond them. They've probably attracted attention, look for the reaction

    - Don't wait until you're confronted with a problem to start thinking, anticipate, have a plan and plan ahead.

    As regards shooting from inside a structure, bang on Celt, there's some stuff in the Breaching thread here about using an offset from a window.

    Leave a comment:


  • Celt
    replied
    There is a quote floating around attributed to some random American G.I. during the late WWII battle of Aachen (September '44.) Aachen was one of the largest urban fights the Allies had been involved in up to that point. The quote has held water up through the current conflicts as well.

    It goes something like, "I don't know why they call it street fighting. The street is the last place you want to be!"

    That's the gods honest truth and I see loads of people violate this pearl of wisdom all the time. Streets are sight line magnifiers. They are death tunnels. They are almost certainly covered by direct fire and act as obstacles to canalize you into kill zones. Only move on them as a last resort. I only try to be on them when, as a medic, I have to put the magic hands on someone.

    It is preferable to use the buildings adjacent to move in. They provide covered and concealed routes. I understand that in the real world, you can cut holes in walls to facilitate movement through one building to another and that that is impossible in the game. My point is just to use them as much as possible to move in. There is no excuse for NOT using the buildings as covered and concealed routes when available... even when enemy contact is not expected.

    If you are using the buildings to move in and must short halt for some reason, stick a weapon out of every orifice. Of the building you sickos. I'm working with juveniles.... sheesh. Anyway... including the 6'o'clock position that you originally entered from. Pro tip for doors and windows... don't be right up on the edge. Your muzzle sticks out and flags your position inviting hand grenades or gunfire as soon as you break cover. In the real world it helps mitigate detection from your muzzle flash, something we really don't have to worry about in the game. Bottom line...be well back from the hole to cover your sector.

    If you are in contact and must move down (hopefully not) or across the street... of course, use smoke. Now that I've given my opinion on streets during a gunfight, I think Crazy has a valid point in his movement techniques... with slight modification. Variations of the following are used as actual SOPs or TTPs in some real units.

    The larger element, lets just say squad for game purposes, splits into its two fire teams of 4. Each fire team takes a side of the street and watches the front of THE OTHER element. For movement, one team bounds along their edge of the street singularly or in buddy teams, over watched by the opposite side element while the stay behinds of their own team continue their overwatch of the opposite side. Once set, the bounding group assumes the security for the opposite side and the trail element moves up the street into the new building. Once the bounding team is reconsolidated, the other side of the street's team uses the same movement techniques to advance on their side of the street.

    Sounds complicated, but with a bit of practice it comes together and makes sense. Its actually pretty quick once you get it down pat, and provides a fair bit of security for movement.

    Regards
    Celt

    Leave a comment:


  • Crazydrunk1
    replied
    We play a lot of urban maps. People need to learn how to split up and move down a street. It should be split 50 50.. Half the squad on 1 side half on the other. A medic on each side. Always with a guy watching the rear. And the middle man on each side should watch the roof above the group across from them. I think this will give the most cover and safe movemnts

    Leave a comment:


  • BigGaayAl
    replied
    Hah! Thought I recognised that picture! Sorry for continuing the off-topicness here. But If you like Lindybeige's content let me recommend the best of the best for those who don't know him yet: http://www.dancarlin.com. He has some epic podcasts about various historical periods and wars. His podcast on e.g. WW1 (over 10 hours I estimate), and on the east front in WW2 have changed my view forever. Thought me more about the war that happened in my backyard (WW1) then I ever learnt anywhere else. I've spent weeks listening to his content, having listened to all of it. Don't regret one second. May be the best podcast on the net.

    Leave a comment:


  • Celt
    replied
    Lulz @ Crawlingeye.

    I've watched that eccentric Brit a few times and I've actually seen the episode you linked before. He is entertaining to say the least. I enjoy his Greco-Roman military stuff as that is squarely in my academic wheelhouse. He has a graphic novel coming out about Hannibal and the 2nd Punic War for those of you who are into that kind of shtuff.

    He definitely keeps his videos fun and entertaining.

    That particular video will certainly be apropos when the British faction comes out. Might even be 'meme-able.'

    Regards,
    Celt

    Leave a comment:


  • Crawlingeye
    replied
    Originally posted by Celt View Post
    More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

    I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

    So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

    You know who you are.

    *COUGHASTACOUGH*
    *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*

    Leave a comment:


  • Celt
    replied
    Well ain't I just behind the times.

    That PR video gave me a small chubby... I wont lie. I have no clue how I had never even heard of PR before Squad came out.

    Leave a comment:


  • disposableHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Celt View Post
    We will no doubt get into an armor-infantry team coordination thread at some point.
    On page 3 of threads, guess it's time to bring it back to the front.

    https://www.tacticalgamer.com/forum/...nized-infantry

    Leave a comment:


  • Celt
    replied
    Originally posted by KeithMann View Post
    Last night I expended an entire BTR worth of 30mm in suppression from about 750m against a building. Number of kills by me: 0. Number of enemy left alive in the building through the combined fires of me and my squad: 0. Did the suppression work?
    That it did. That was a great example of armor-infantry team coordination and individual initiative. I distinctly remember hearing someone say something to the effect of "man something was hammering that top floor" and Mannerism coming across the net and stating that was him working the 30mm.

    Smart use of the BTR-82A's strengths (standoff precision fires beyond the threat reply range) to support an infantry assault. When things click like that, success (as was the case here) is often not far behind. We will no doubt get into an armor-infantry team coordination thread at some point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crazydrunk1
    replied
    Originally posted by Celt View Post

    Dispo,

    Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

    More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

    I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

    So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

    You know who you are.

    *COUGHASTACOUGH*
    *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*
    Celt I always am testing you to be faithful and catch the incoming rounds for me while I stand and do my thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigGaayAl
    replied
    On implementation: I think a lot can be done as soon as you have even one player you can build on; a TG guy or server veteran, that understands what you want to do.

    The other day I ran a squad with one of the worst KDR's ever, 4-26 or something, with I think only Masterjack in the squad as a player to build on. The squad was full of new players that didn't know half the mechanics.

    I used a tactic which I've seen on WW2 illustrations of having a single scout, and the whole squad moving in his wake very closely to me. This is a tactic I want to remember to use more because it is easy for it's effectiveness. I can see why it was used in WW2 with many very green recruits in the squads.

    Using Masterjack in this case as eyes and ears allowed us to get within 70 meters of the objective (full of enemies) where no one fired and Masterjack was giving us good information about the defenders. Then we attacked, slightly spread out, and got slaughtered.

    2nd time we did the same, but with the big guns on some high ground. 30mil killed the support element before we could get the assault team close. So I called the retreat for the survivors. We then fell back into defense.

    In terms of points the round was a failure, and I felt guilty losing so many tickets for the team. But paradoxically it still felt like a great round, and it was pretty awesome gameplay. Point is you can do a lot with just a few vet players, if they support you and coach the rest with proximity voip. It doesn't always have to be complicated if we can delegate.



    I am loving the discussion in this thread very much. I just read in the posts above it is already having an effect in our playstyle as I read in here. The kind of dynamic I see in this thread is really what can make a game, a server come alive. It's certainly inspiring to me. E.g. Wicks' posts about limited penetration have helped my cqb play a lot. And I'm surviving much longer in CQB because of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • disposableHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Celt View Post

    Dispo,

    Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

    More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

    I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

    So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

    You know who you are.

    *COUGHASTACOUGH*
    *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*
    If you want to see what my screen looks like most of the time in an engagement, watch this: https://www.tacticalgamer.com/forum/...31#post1792131

    :)

    It's no wonder I die so much.

    Anyway, back on conversation. The tactics discussed here are do-able, it is just going to take patience on the SL's part, some help from some squad members who can act as FTLs, and some cooperation from the rest of the squad. That, and a desire to not move so fast at the start until you get your cohesion down.

    Leave a comment:


  • Celt
    replied
    Originally posted by disposableHero View Post
    Dyslexi's video on peeling for reference. I'm sure there are others out there, but he puts in the context of a video game, so I thought it would be good to post here.



    I'm all in favor of better unit tactics. The reality of implementing them currently, without having a regular squad of guys who have practiced together often, is a little daunting. I also need to remember to take myself off of point as SL, but this is a known flaw of my game play style for years and I'm afraid this old dog has a tough time learning new tricks. Regardless, there is great information in this thread and we would all do well to try to implement as much of it as we can during our games.
    Dispo,

    Yes on the implementation. Doing any of this reliably, even with the familiarity many of us have with each other now, takes time, rehearsal and training. Just like the real world. I am just waxing military 'cause I currently have nothing better to do and like to listen (see?) myself talk about it.

    More importantly, on the SL thing. Here is a new trick that should be relatively easy.

    I don't know what it is about you folks who like to SL in game. Whenever you get into the map or get all tied up on coms, you all like to stop in the middle of an open field and silhouette yourselves. Often with sniper fire coming in. Celt of course, who faithfully follows SL around making sure he stays alive, often has to remind them that cover is their friend.

    So, SLs. When you go into map mode or get into an argument on the net with other SLs, do poor ole Celt a favor before he has a heart attack. At the least go prone in some concealment. Preferably, find some cover. I'll be your local security while you do what you do, but for gods sake stop channeling your inner Patton and posing in the open or silhouetting yourself on a ridgeline. Its bad for my health.

    You know who you are.

    *COUGHASTACOUGH*
    *COUGHCRAZYDRUNKCOUGH*

    Leave a comment:


  • ExpendableCrew
    replied
    Originally posted by Celt View Post
    As a side note... Expendable was on the SAW last night (28 March) and was making noticeable efforts to utilize some of the concepts in this thread. I think everyone there can agree that it was highly effective. We dominated and/or held out as a single squad most of the time thanks in no small part due to his AR work. No finer example is the pivot, assault and recapture of Radio when they started back capping us. And who ever was on the -203 was masterful as well, dropping 'nades INSIDE the rooftop door ways. It was freaking beautiful and textbook.
    Last night's assault on Radio was a beautiful thing. It was very well done. One item to note that I experienced last night on the SAW - you only get 6 drums. I could empty 6 drums VERY quickly. It's nearly as important to have a resupply nearby for a SAW as it is for the LATs. Also, reloading the SAW takes forever.

    Oh .. I didn't get many (if any) kills but that's the point. The SAW isn't for killing, it's for scaring.

    Leave a comment:

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