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Squad Cohesion and Rally Points

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  • #16
    I've become more mechanics-minimalist in my game philosophy lately. I figure the more mechanics, the more the mechanics get gamed. Play style is the only defense. So, for rally points, I'd be happy if people just treated them as exactly that: points at which the squad "rallys up."
    |TG| Mannerism

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    • #17
      Originally posted by disposableHero

      2) Destroys the cohesion of the squad itself. Players die, the spawn back in and the first thing on their mind is to go kill the guy that shot them, or run to a position they just *know* is going to flank the enemy. Player spawns, runs toward that point, and either is somewhat successful or dies again. However, this action is most likely going to lead them away from their squad and away from their objective.
      In the current rally system, spawning immediately and running to flank the element that killed you is the best thing you can do for your squad to win a firefight. Because the other squad is doing the same thing. The only way to win is to do it faster, and to kill more people. And guess what, that squad that insists on staying together? They are the easiest to beat in a firefight; because the second you get shot, you know where they all are, and can flank them for a super lit kill streak.

      After your ac-130 airstrike and/or carepackage is called in, you then figure out where the enemy rally point is by how they run at you 45 seconds later. Just follow that path back. This is literally the only way to take ground now. Otherwise there is a constant stream of lone wolfs flanking every side of your position.

      If neither squad has a 1337 killer that can accomplish this set of tasks--die, spawn rally, flank and destroy enemy element, guess where their rally point is-- then the gun fight turns into a clunky arcade shooter with long spawn times. Which is, I can only assume, what the other side of this argument is aiming for?

      Simple Fix. Timed rally points. So that they are used as rally points. Not sure why this hasn't happened yet.





      Stay together, communicate, don't give up.

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      • #18
        You beat a flank by stepping out of its arc. I agree with a lot of what Paine says about the realities of play, some of that is player driven due to an inability to adapt, some undoubtedly is due to RP's semi permanence.

        Better cohesion, better maneuver and discipline in engaging helps.

        Ticket and bleed levels also drive tempo to the extent that many feel they have to choose very direct routes onto small cap zones rather than smarter movement using terrain. This leads to tactically basic confrontations.

        V10 will impact this positively though imo with mounted MG's etc. They can close down a lot of direct approaches over open terrain if used correctly. This should counter a lot of the 'charging' onto flags and force better maneuver. If that pans out as I would expect then the tickets/time ratio will have to be adapted at the game not player level to take that into account. That will be a positive change in my opinion.
        Last edited by Wicks; 01-17-2018, 06:18 AM.


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        • #19
          Wicks and Paine both raise good points on the current reality of game play in Squad, and in doing so both also validate that the spawn mechanic on rally points is a large part of the problem as it enables this type of lone-wolf-to-flank-a-squad mentality. OP rally points coupled with a broken medic/revive/punishment for death system lead to never ending "firefights" of ones and twos trying to flank the squad that just killed them means that the dev team might as well just put a kill cam in the game. There isn't much difference between that and the way the game plays right now.


          "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
          |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

          No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

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          • #20
            Agreed.

            However there is a solution even in the current version and thankfully it's player driven.

            In the same way that you can nullify an enemy flanking maneuver and use it to your advantage by stepping out of the arc of the flank you can nullify the current play style 'meta' with rally points by stepping out of the pattern of behaviour.

            Set your RP further back and focus on cohesion and maneuver above all else. Disregard the notion that it is more effective to push your RP up and then spawn/die/spawn/flank on a fractal pattern till one group is eliminated.

            That effectiveness only exists because of how people play. That attrition is purely a dice roll with a side of player shooting skill added in, yet still predominantly luck based.

            Instead work on good movement and cohesion. Instead of individuals spawning in close to the fight and essentially watching your spawns tick down and the life clock tick down on your rp before its over run, aim to move better and arrive together as a unit so that fights are more slanted in your favour. Make it about you having more guns in the fight not one man Ninja flanks. Remove chance and singular attrition from the equation.

            This can be done in any version of Squad and works for all versions. Work together, work your medics, aim to extend individual up time across the Squad. Be effective and be in the fight longer than the other guy.

            That can't be stressed enough, stay alive longer, maneuver better, don't feed the machine, feed off it.


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            • #21
              It's worth adding that the above requires adaptation by SL's but for it to be feasible the real shift starts with the Squad members. They have to be disciplined. They have to focus on their individual roles and responsibilities, maintain a good level of situational awareness, exercise restraint in engaging/holding fire when appropriate and work together/move together. Buddying up and moving in a minimum of pairs is the first step. Covering angles of threat, focusing on cohesion and following orders and hitting your targets/staying alive/being combat effective.

              I'm seeing more and more of that from TG when I play and imo that is the way forward.


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              • #22
                Squad is never going to be a good arcade shooter or a good simulation. What it can be the greatest mix of reality and fun available. There is no other game out there with that mission statement. That's a huge market to corner. Right now it's just a bad arcade shooter and a bad simulator at the same time, with some people trying really hard to role-play one or the other.

                Wicks It would be great if everyone role-played the way squad was supposed to be played. A few of us tried to do that, for a long time, and then we got tired of forcing it against basic game mechanics. Reality is that the rally, medic, and overrun systems influence toward a different play-style than the game advertises. A few SLs are still trying, and they can get a good fight once a night every once in a while, maybe.

                The fact is that if you SL and roleplay the game Squad should be, most of the time you will get beat by a gunship carepackage flank. No amount of positive thinking is going to make players act like a squad on a large, consistent scale. Only those basic mechanics changing will.

                And again, this isn't a "this is just alpha" issue. Those three things could be fixed in a few lines of code. Hopefully someone on the team is reading this, and can be the voice of reason in those meetings where things like this are decided. Stick to your mission statement.

                Fixes:
                Rally point lasts for 1-2 minutes. Reload at FOB.
                Medic is the only one that can heal, every player can revive with the patch.
                FOBs are actually not spawnable if there are enemies nearby.
                Last edited by Paine; 01-18-2018, 12:26 AM.
                Stay together, communicate, don't give up.

                sigpic

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                • #23
                  Sorry Paine I don't agree about a few things there. I do agree the mechanics need work but it is WIP, everyone knows this.

                  Firstly it's not about role playing anything, it's about not playing in a predetermined way because you've mentally caved and determined it's more effective. If you don't die much, put your RP further back etc, respawn mechanics don't really matter because you aren't respawning.

                  ​​​​​​If you get beaten by a solo flanker, which happens (we all have off days) , you played badly, end of story. That's not a mechanics fault. That's not an RP problem. And it happened in PR on every version going back to 3.5.

                  TG kind of exists to drive teamwork and make players act like a Squad so clearly I don't agree there either as I've seen it with mine own eyes.

                  Re medics, 'everyone can revive', what. Don't agree with that at all.

                  Game needs work, it's EA, it's getting work, hopefully they will address some the issues because there is definitely room for improvement in key game design areas, on that I'm in total agreement with you.


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                  • #24
                    Wicks I agree that v10 seems to be a step in the right direction. It's true that you can counter flanks by stepping out. But we aren't talking about a squad on squad fight here.

                    The discussion is about the constant waves of 1s and 2s which attenuate current gameplay. None of those points had anything to do with only one solo flanker.

                    You can call teamplay and acting like a squad whatever you want. In this game, right now, in this discussion, I call staying together as a squad and teamplay roleplaying because those ideals are not forced by the mechanics. If the game's simple mechanics don't lead players to act in that way in the first place, most people will not do it. Acknowledging this fact is not mentally caving.

                    TG aims for the good squads. We need a game that lends itself to that goal.

                    The Medic suggestion is a way of solving the medic problem, because it multiplies the rally point problem. Right now, if the medic dies, it is very hard to keep the squad together. The death of a medics forces reliance on the rally as a spawn point, rather than a rally point. Currently we can't "pick up" a dead medic's kit. So, the alternative I suggest is allowing everyone's patches to revive a player, while they still need a medic to heal them and make them able to shoot and move.

                    Just like the rally point fix, this would be simple.
                    Last edited by Paine; 01-19-2018, 12:25 AM.
                    Stay together, communicate, don't give up.

                    sigpic

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                    • #25
                      Paine I understand you better now after that post. Only partially agree on the staying together/playing as a Squad. I think it's not as effective as it should be when it's an average squad however a really good squad is a different ball game. Achieving that is the issue. So I do agree to an extent that the game doesn't do enough to enforce/encourage team play on some levels.


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