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  • Resupply in the field

    Following up on a good discussion on discord about resupply in the field, ammo bearers, logistics and the ammo bag.

    I would be happy with an Ammo bearer who only had ammo for the LMG's, no one else. That would drive teamwork and potentially greater use of the lmg in its intended role. If you give them 'catch all wonder ammo' that anyone can resupply off you devalue the supply chain/logistics and the ability of an SL to provide for his dependents. He then has that much less value to them.

    DisposableHero-Today at 8:07 PM

    By not giving bandages you encourage medics to give up when they are more than 100m from an ammo point By not giving rockets you encourage AT to give up when they are out of ammo
    Why is the LMG so important that it's the only kit to be able to get ammo away from an ammo box?

    TG-Irr|Asta85-Today at 8:09 PM

    Maybe LMG ammo from the ammo carrier, but AT from vehicles. That brings two different types of team work.

    |TG-X|Jeepo-Today at 8:24 PM

    just give the basic rifleman ammo - nice and simple
    Ammo for all - mags, nades, smokes, bandages
    But it wont last long - whole squad gets on it and its instantly gone
    Again - why spend all the time reinventing the wheel when this has been discussed and balanced and played about 6 years ago

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:31 PM

    The reason I chose the LMG is because of the level of use it should get in an infantry section. It's tenuous but bear with. The LMG can facilitate fire and maneuver in a way that the medic and AT can't for an example. My suggestion isn't about stopping people respawning to get ammo. It's about creating a little bit of teamwork to drive greater teamwork. The way to stop people respawning to fill AT or bandages is to have longer spawn times as appropriate, make rallies less powerful and have better over run mechanics for FOBS.

    They're different issues.

    LMG's not running dry after one decent engagement with a lot of suppression is about driving them to do it more often, which promotes suppression, fire and maneuver.
    Suiciding to get ammo is gaming the game and needs to be dealt with in a punitive manner. My suggestion was focused on encouraging good gameplay in a positive manner
    I like Asta's suggestion re rearming say AT from a vehicle. Again it creates another micro teamwork dynamic.

    If you run out of bandages maybe the Squad needs to get shot less. However I would argue you wouldn't want the Squad to use fire and maneuver less.

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:46 PM

    I guess the point is this: simple is better. Don't over-complicate the system - it will only lead to player confusion (especially new players) and frustration.

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:47 PM

    OK, I don't agree that having a magic bag that can rearm anything is good for gameplay, teamwork or encourages logistics

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:49 PM

    You have a magic bag that heals all wounds. I also don't believe in punishing players on a server because only 1 kit can be re-armed in the field by another class but no others can.

    |TG-Irr|Asta85-Today at 9:50 PM

    Good point.

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:51 PM

    If the ammo bag has limited ammo points, shouldn't each player/squad be able to prioritize who they want to reload (identical to the radio/ammo crate exploit)?
    That is teamwork

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:51 PM

    It's not punishing players though. Neither system is in the game yet so they have a free hand. Healing is essentially a singular thing as far as games go. It already has two elements patching, then medic bag. The magic ammo bag is a hangover from BF2.

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:51 PM

    "Suiciding to get ammo is gaming the game and needs to be dealt with in a punitive manner."

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:52 PM

    That's not punishment. That's reinforcing the need to have logistics for heavy weapons etc and blowing your complete medic supplies for two medics immediately
    Side point. How do you balance vehicles vs squads with two AT and four riflemen with magic AT bags

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:54 PM

    It's not a magic bag if it carries limited ammo points. Again - you have to prioritize who gets the ammo. The rifleman carries 1 bag until he reloads at an ammo supply point on a FOB.
    so in essence you get 2 extra rockets per ammo bag
    considering how OP 30mm are right now, I don't see it as upsetting the balance any

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:55 PM

    So 12 rockets in my proposed squad
    And that's one squad

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:55 PM

    where do you get 12 rockets?
    make it the iron-sights/red-dot rifleman then

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:55 PM

    4 x ammo bag with 2 in, 2 x at carrying 2 each

    DisposableHero-Today at 9:56 PM

    or 1 kit that is an ammo-bearer as you suggested - a rifleman with an ammo bag instead of, say smoke or frags. 1 bag worth 200 ammo points.
    but instead of only re-arming the LMG it re-arms anyone - the SL decides who gets the ammo. Is it the medic who is out of bandages? The AT to deal with a vehicle with 2 extra rockets? The grenadier? The LMG?
    1 ammo bearer per squad - done

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 9:59 PM

    Still don't like it. Lmg ammo drives more suppression and fire and maneuver whilst still maintaining the importance of logistics and smarter play. Flexible ammo drives squad self sufficiency more than I'd like in terms of gameplay

    DisposableHero-Today at 10:00 PM

    Then as a SL you could just say "This ammo is for the LMG only." - done

    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 10:03 PM

    But but but it's not about my personal preference lol. It's about what I think would actually benefit the game as a whole not what's convenient to me



  • #2
    My thoughts. I'm all about providing choices on the battlefield, and making those choices difficult. Would you sacrifice having a Magnified Optic Rifleman in your squad for an Ironsight/RDS "Re-supply" class soldier who carried re-supply? To simplify the process and avoid confusion I would prefer a standard load out of the Re-supply class (needs a better name). A resupply would not have frag grenades - but their ruck would carry:

    3 x Extra Bandages in addition to their own
    2 x LAT Rockets (HEAT)
    3 x LMG mags
    3 x 40mm HE grenades

    Once their stores are empty they can reload their ruck for 100 points at an ammo crate.
    Last edited by Pro-ActiveDeath; 02-15-2018, 08:19 AM.

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    • #3
      I'm at a loss to understand Wicks infatuation with the need to resupply the LMG over every other kit, but I can only offer my perspective as an almost full-time SL:

      The battlefield is dynamic. If you run a good squad and manage to get far enough ahead of your supply chain, chances are you've taken contact at least once, if not twice, and are most likely running low on supplies. That contact might have been an infantry squad, so chances are pretty high you're low on bandages, possibly even 40mm rounds from your grenadier. If low on bandages, you now face the option of continuing forward toward more contact but with reduced medical capabilities to keep your squad up OR you have to high tail it back to an ammo supply. On offense, this is quite the dilemma, as you risk losing all momentum and possibly even not being able to support another squad in a coordinated assault. Who knows, but no sane SL wants to push into contact with reduced medical capabilities because it just means an awful lot of give-up and re-spawn are about to happen.

      Perhaps your contact was with a vehicle and you burned your rockets trying to either destroy or drive the vehicle away. If you engaged a stryker or BTR, chances are really high that all of your rockets are gone. Again, you're left with a difficult choice of moving forward and risking another vehicle encounter (or the one your drove away returning after you) or moving back to re-arm. Considering the power of the BTR 30mm in v10, having AT available is crucial to the longevity of your squad.

      Lastly, of course, your LMG(s) could have been doing so much suppressing that they need to be resupplied as well.

      I think the choice to re-arm and who to re-arm should be left up to the SL. It is his squad, he knows the situation and should be able to have control over how he wants it kitted out and supplied. Adding an ammo bag to a rifleman kit (points available TBD by balance, no sense debating what the value should be) is the most logical solution. Tried and true through *years* of PR development, there's no sense complicating how it works or trying to re-invent the wheel on this one.

      Besides, what do you do if you don't have a LMG in your squad (which is entirely possible, happens quite frequently actually)? Who gets re-supplied then? It makes the ammo-bearer entirely worthless, which is just ridiculous.

      K.I.S.S. applies here.

      "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
      |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

      No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

      Comment


      • #4
        Good points y'all boys, partially agree with all of you guys LOL

        There's a lot of ways to achieved the goal, some of ways are better, others not so good...
        So I think it depends what you want to do, and how you want to do, which sacrifice you want to do, like Pro-ActiveDeath said...

        But for real??? What Squad needs... better players, clever, aware players. Period. Like you guys, we all know that squad is supposed to be a mil-sil... So we need players with that knowledge and mind, doing what you guys do (except Wicks joking you matte!), looking for better solutions and improvements in game/gameplay. We know Squad is still in alpha dev. But it's a game with a lot of potencial right now, and my simple thought was that just depends how and with who you play. But If you are a standart TG player, you know what to do, even if you are just a simple noob at battlefield like me (just listen and follow what your commander want to do. Simple) LOL.

        But of course the point here is resupply in the field, as the topic says, and just to get back at the topic...my thoughts are pretty same what Pro-ActiveDeath said on his comment:

        Originally posted by Pro-ActiveDeath View Post
        My thoughts. I'm all about providing choices on the battlefield, and making those choices difficult. Would you sacrifice a Magnified Optic Rifleman for an Ironsight/RDS soldier who carried re-supply? To simplify the process and avoid confusion I would prefer a standard load out of the Re-supply class (needs a better name). A resupply would not have frag grenades - but their ruck would carry:

        3 x Extra Bandages in addition to their own
        2 x LAT Rockets (HEAT)
        3 x LMG mags
        3 x 40mm HE grenades

        Once their stores are empty they can reload their ruck for 100 points at an ammo crate.

        Comment


        • #5
          Adding an ammo bag to every rifleman is not the solution to my mind it's a crutch, a hangover from BF2 carried over to PR. That's where it should stay. Things have moved on and Squad should obviously learn from the past but not be bound by it.

          At most there should be an ammo bearer role.

          Otherwise you're just turning it into BF2.

          And since we're taking shots here lol. If you blow your entire combat loadout and medical supplies in one engagement with another squad you might want to check your definition of 'good'.


          Comment


          • #6
            Go stroke your LMG in the corner, leave the Squad Leading to the big boys then.

            "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
            |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

            No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

            Comment


            • #7
              I edited my original post for clarity, but I agree with Wicks that it should be a separate class/role.

              I would also go on to say that it should be included in the same restrictions of having only 2 magnified optic rifleman, and the ammo bearer/Re-supply class would count as 1 of your 2 magnified slots. So as a SL do you want the capacity to perform a limited re-supply in the field, or that extra magnified optic?

              I think it should be a choice like all others. Do you want a grenadier or an extra LMG, do you want some additional supplies or an extra magnified optic? It should be about choice.

              Comment


              • #8
                With a game like Squad I feel the biggest priority is maintaining the integrity of the squad itself.

                With that, adding the ability for a squad to use its own member for resupply makes the most sense. By giving rifleman (or some other kit) an "ammo Bag" it would allow the squad to stay in the field together longer.

                The ammo source could be used to keep medics able to revive, AT kits an additional round, or even rifle ammo for anyone. The current system rewards the squad with a close RP and no desire to stay alive. "used your rockets? No problem just kill yourself and magic reload."

                I like the idea of rewarding life not death.

                doYouEvenLuftwaffe

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like the idea of rewarding life too. I also like the idea of rewarding logistics, creating teamwork beyond a single squad, increasing the value of vehicles and fobs. As such I like the idea of an ammo bearer being a limited kit with limited ammo points available. Ammo could also be available from all vehicles, creating further teamwork.

                  ​​​​​​I like the idea of fobs being created that are sometimes active footholds in enemy territory which people can return to, still alive, and rearm, because they played smart. I would like to see people running vehicles use them to occasionally resupply people in the field rather than sit on a hill with them. I like the notion of stronger links being formed between discounted mech infantry and their vehicle, specifically that reliance for a fuller resupply.

                  I absolutely agree that respawning to get ammo should be addressed I just don't agree that giving a squad too much self sufficiency is the only way to tackle that problem. How about reducing the power of rallies, increasing the value of Fobs, encouraging inter squad teamwork.

                  So, I can work with an ammo bearer role definitely and definitely would like to see ammo in vehicles. However anymore than that, ie basic riflemen with ammo would definitely break other systems in my opinion.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not infantry, but know a few that are. Pretty much in your 8 man section everyone carries extra ammo for the 'support' weapons in the section, be that LMG/GPMG link, rockets, mortars or 40mm rounds.

                    The quick fix I believe would be the rifleman gets his magic ammo bag and the SL decides who gets to resupply based off what they deem is required.

                    I think a good way to potentially skin this is to pre-load the rifleman before moving out. Give each on a pre-determined amount of supplies they can take, they go to a FOB and fill up with whatever the SL deems necessary for the upcoming mission. Still allows for tactical flexibility, but doesn't have the magic fix it all bag to save the squad in every circumstance. With this I don't see the requirement for a special 'ammo-bearer' class, it's over the top.

                    Each SL will have their own style, some more pre-cautious would favour med supplies, others rifle/LMG ammo, it's their decision to make on the ground. Once the squads objectives are met the rifleman can get to a FOB and reconfigure ahead of the next proposed mission/threat.

                    Perhaps have a default ammo breakdown so the rifleman doesn't have to take time every life to configure it, or perhaps remember previous loadouts.

                    The only other way I could see this done is an Arma style loadout where you could transfer individual magazines across but that's probably too much for Squad.
                    AnimalMother
                    Ex TG-31st LR
                    "Is it the 31st policy to have hott women as their avatars? Because if so that's a pretty baddass policy." - Pvt. brokeback


                    Arte et Marte

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