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Spawn Over-runs - How do you feel about them?

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  • Spawn Over-runs - How do you feel about them?

    The title of the thread pretty much says it all: Now that we've gotten the spawn over-run mechanic for HABs and rally points for a while, how does everyone feel about them?

    Do you miss the gritty action of having to wrest control of a HAB away from the enemy team with reinforcements spawning in?

    Do you miss the adrenaline-filled moments when you're alone in the HAB, mercilessly gunning down disorientated players who magically teleport into the world in front of you?

    Do you like being able to shut down a team's ability to bring in reinforcements by sneaking into a "magical" circle that will deny their spawn if you're there?

    Do you enjoy getting rid of rally points, most likely unseen, just by jogging through the woods on your lone-wolf mission to find the enemy spawn points?


    Alright, obviously loaded questions that reveal my bias in this. However, within those are the truths about the game play that was in Squad prior to the ability to over-run a HAB without spawn camping it as well as truths about v12 game play.

    From my perspective, over-run is the mechanic used to negate the meat-grinder play that used to be commonplace in most squad matches, where the radio (FOB) controlled the increase to spawn times in the HAB and attackers were essentially forced to camp inside the HAB to allow friendlies the ability to neutralize it through either digging up the radio or the HAB to the point where it could no longer be spawned on. We all remember those fun days.

    Then, prior to the over-run the HAB itself became the trigger for increasing the spawn timer. This helped (since the radio and the HAB could be separated by over 100m) the attacking force a bit, but the end result was still the meat grinder.

    Now, of course, we have over-run. This prevents (almost) players from camping inside the HAB and killing players who are spawning into the world, but the trade-off with the current implementation is that it allows the enemy to sneaky-sneak 2 players within the over-run distance and hide, but still stop the enemy team from being able to spawn. This isn't really so much of a problem on larger maps with open terrain (Yeho, Goro, Tallil, etc) but it is on dense urban maps like Narva, Sumari, Basrah and most likely Fallujah. Lots of buildings to hide in on those maps that reward ninja players with the ability to shut down the opposing team for doing nothing more than just not being seen.

    There's good and bad with the current system: It really diminishes spawn killing but at the price of disabling spawns for little effort at times.

    So, how do you feel about the current system? If you could change it, what would your system look like? Any other thoughts on this?

    Let's hear it......

    "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
    |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

    No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

  • #2
    Awesome post, much to say, will post soon.


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    • #3
      FOB control has become increasingly more interesting since we also have to rely on logistics to keep the ammunition up. Then this over-run mechanic will force us to have to defend our bases even harder. As of right now I think that makes "FOB hunting" more exciting.

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      • #4
        I mostly like the latest changes. I would be open to a reduced radius for disabling HAB / rally's forcing players to be inside of the HAB and actually collide with rallys to disable. I like the extra coordination element of having to get two people near the HAB while the rest hunt for the radio.A three player requirement may be ok too.

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        • #5
          I would prefer something similar to what PoohBearXL suggested reduce the disable radius slightly, and maybe force you to shovel a rally a couple times to remove it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CaptRandom View Post
            I would prefer something similar to what PoohBearXL suggested reduce the disable radius slightly, and maybe force you to shovel a rally a couple times to remove it.
            The problem with rallies not being disable by proximity is having people spawn into waiting players crosshairs. I do not miss spawning into a contested HAB and instantly getting shot. That was the worst experience in the game, hands down.

            maybe make them just get temporarily disabled by proximity and then have to shovled to remove? That way people can just sweep an area “blindly” as they can now.

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            • #7
              The V12 spawn mechanics are fine for me personally. the 2 person requirement keeps the lone wolf ninja from causing harm above his weight class. Besides... if you are trying to hold a point and relying ONLY on the HAB without an RP off point as an 'oh sheet' fall back spawn... you deserve to lose the cap. In my humble opinion.

              No spawn mechanic will a) keep a player from seeing another player spawn (unless you force everyone to spawn main on death or code in a line of sight check FOR EVERY PLAYER that would likely complicate and slow down the game), and b) make every single person happy. So why bother. As is... its a happy medium that seems to work well enough. Whats the saying? Perfect is the enemy of good enough?

              Celt




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              • #8
                I believe the radius is too large, it should be two people physically inside the HAB to disable or no friendlies alive within the current radius. This would allow for HABs and FOBs to become defensible again. Also at that point the FOB is lost, so any spawns beyond that would contribute to the meat grinder effect. It should also be noted that all you need to do is drive a vehicle beside the HAB to disable it without even getting out.
                .
                A prime example would be Logar, where you place the HAB inside a compound and enemies outside the walls are disabling the spawn, you still have 15 people alive within the compound but because there's 2 people standing outside somewhere you can't spawn, IMO that is not lost it is under siege which should still allow spawning, albeit with a penalty (as before?). This mechanic is very much highlighted in urban settings, where the attempt to use map features (buildings, walls, etc.) as part of the defense is really encouraged.

                I think it is too skewed to allow the attackers to disable a FOB without having to fire a single round while there are defenders present.


                MM

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Militia-Man View Post
                  I believe the radius is too large, it should be two people physically inside the HAB to disable or no friendlies alive within the current radius. This would allow for HABs and FOBs to become defensible again. Also at that point the FOB is lost, so any spawns beyond that would contribute to the meat grinder effect. It should also be noted that all you need to do is drive a vehicle beside the HAB to disable it without even getting out.
                  .
                  A prime example would be Logar, where you place the HAB inside a compound and enemies outside the walls are disabling the spawn, you still have 15 people alive within the compound but because there's 2 people standing outside somewhere you can't spawn, IMO that is not lost it is under siege which should still allow spawning, albeit with a penalty (as before?). This mechanic is very much highlighted in urban settings, where the attempt to use map features (buildings, walls, etc.) as part of the defense is really encouraged.

                  I think it is too skewed to allow the attackers to disable a FOB without having to fire a single round while there are defenders present.


                  MM
                  Don't you think that would put us right back in the meat grinder we had before, like always happened in Fallujah? HAB up in a multistory, and hardly any chance you are going to get near if for an hour.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To me, disabling a HAB should mean that you control the area. Ergo you have at least won the initial firefight. Conversely HAB's take time, effort, teamwork and resources to set up and the game suffers if they are too fragile, therefore they shouldn't pop like a balloon at the first withering glance in their direction. Ask yourself, how will we ever get people to build actual defensible/defended true Forward Operating Bases that allow squads and teams to regroup, refit, reorganise etc if we make them so fragile that the only effective option is to make them directly analogous to rally points, just team rally points.

                    So how to balance something that should be more permanent than a rally point, more of a stake in the ground etc that can't be stymied by two lone wolves, without recreating the somewhat ridiculous meatgrinder scenario of 'lets all shoot the clowns falling out of the clown car' until someone gets bored.

                    For me the answer is obvious. Treat it as an objective of sorts. Make HAB's only disabled by more players. For example make it require 4 players within the radius to disable it. Really simple. That means you have to work together to stop something the other team worked together to put in place. In this way a HAB requires a bit more teamwork to take down, each player has to play smarter and stay alive etc to get the intended effect. Maybe, when you spot a hab you actually have to get a plan to cover it first so 4 (or whatever number, but it should not be much higher) guys can push forward.

                    To me that is logical, drives teamwork and balances risk, reward, resources and effort.

                    Edit

                    I should add the reason I picked 4 players to overrun a HAB is somewhat simple. 2 drives silly play, it's kinda gamey when you consider what the HAB represents and certainly doesn't reflect any of degree control over an area. However if you have infinite defender spawns until the hab is destroyed, well, you would never be able to control the area save for killing them faster than the respawn timer ie the meat grinder. Which is laughable gameplay for posters of crap tier Youtube fish in a barrel videos.

                    So how do you drive the right behaviours and outcomes on both teams and avoid the nonsense. Make it so that an attacking squad, a full squad, has to work together to provide covering fire on the hab whilst 4 players get into radius, ie two fireteams or approximately that split of players from the same squad in whatever configuration. This gives the defenders a chance against a lone individual or pair if they are aware. It also does not prevent a lone individual from digging down an undefended hab. Again this drives the right behaviours and thought processes. Hab in the backfield, maybe you don't need to keep such a close eye on it. Hab in a contested area of the map, maybe you have to keep some people close by to maintain the viability. All these decisions/choices are logical and tactical, and they are still decisions the player/squad/team can make, they aren't taken out of their hands by the game. To me at least, that's good design.
                    Last edited by Wicks; 02-01-2019, 06:47 PM.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CaptRandom View Post

                      Don't you think that would put us right back in the meat grinder we had before, like always happened in Fallujah? HAB up in a multistory, and hardly any chance you are going to get near if for an hour.
                      No, and I'm not saying we should revert entirely, but the scale of balance should be on the side of the defenders depending on the investment.
                      That's where the penalty comes in, or more people as Wicks suggested. Though you could also do a +5 enemy vs friendly. Where if you have 4 defenders alive and there are (9) within the radius to disable it. Its an investment in time, team resources and effort and shouldn't be easy to knock down if it is actively defended.

                      I think if there are several active defenders they shouldn't be over-run by a fireteam over a hundred feet away possibly though multiple layers of defense. If you have 28 defenders alive on a FOB then you should need more attackers alive within the radius to disable it. The onus should on the attacking force to disable the HAB.

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                      • #12
                        My thoughts:

                        Not a fan of seeing the enemy team spawn in to the world. For a game that is taking steps to add so many elements of authenticity and/or realism, such as component damage to vehicles, real-world weapon systems and vehicles, reliance on logistics to support your offense and/or defense, the ability to micro-manage the ammo you want, etc. etc., it seems just silly to see a member of the opposite team magically materialize in front of you.

                        Second to that is the absolutely horrific game play that is essentially required - without over-run disabling spawns - of having a player camp inside the spawn to neutralize these multi-dimensional beings as they materialize in front of you. You're a player on that team, you've just died and waited the requisite period of time (a punishment for dying) to be able to begin play again and BAM! You're dead. No idea where it came from, no chance to defend yourself, just back to watching the spawn timer, being punished once again for dying. This. Sucks. Balls.

                        I also understand the frustration that a few people hiding in a building, or a bush, or prone in the grass can cause when the ability to spawn on your HAB becomes disabled. I agree that with the difficulty and importance of logistics, HABs are disproportionately delicate.

                        Current disable range is 30m for all spawn points. Leave it that way.

                        What could change is the number required to disable the spawn. I like the system used to capture a contested flag. The attacking team needs +3 in numbers (alive) over the defending team to start moving the flag. Let's use that same system to disable a HAB spawn. The attacking team needs +3 (+4, +5) over the defenders to disable the ability to spawn. If you have a full squad within 30m of a HAB defending a point then the enemy needs basically 1.5 full squads within those same 30m to prevent you from getting reinforcements in. Seems logical, it's entirely consistent with the flag capture logic so understanding how it works is very simple since you're mirroring that.

                        However, the real problem still exists: spawn camping. This is the real reason for over-run - minimize the number of times players are killed immediately after they spawn into the world so they at least have a chance to defend themselves. Sure, sometimes one guy gets inside the HAB and still spawn kills, but the number of occurrences has unarguably declined since over-run was introduced. This is good, but not ideal. The solution to this is to make it so enemy players cannot enter the HAB itself. Camp outside - ok - sure. At least you can still spawn and not get slaughtered instantly.

                        If you can couple the +3 (or whatever number deemed appropriate) ratio with the inability to enter an enemy HAB then the actual over-run radius can be experimented with to find what is best.

                        "You milsim guys are ruining the game."
                        |TG-42nd|Wicks-Today at 4:47 PM

                        No it was fine mate I'm just an *******

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