Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

    Below is a copy/paste from a real world tactical newsletter I get discussing which entry technique is better... I've changed names and information of a real world nature to protect the instructor/aurthor...

    I know we don't really play SWAT4 much right now, but there could be a rebirth one day, or a new SWAT5 one day, or it could apply to any other tactical shooter, like Vegas for instance.




    "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

    Some SWAT operators and patrol officers clearing rooms on building searches favor the "button hook" technique, which allows them to enter a room by wrapping quickly around the door jamb and minimizing their exposure in the "fatal funnel." They're counting on startling and overwhelming any suspect who may be inside.

    One of the concerns with this technique, according to three experienced scouts with the Los Angeles County (Calif.) SD's Special Weapons Team who conducted hands-on training exercises recently for the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin, is that the button hook "propels you into unknown territory."

    Once you've made the turn across the threshold and are in the room, "you're committed," says one of the instructors. "You may suddenly find yourself confronting a suspect who's in an ambush position, and you'll be at a disadvantage because you'll be forced to make instantaneous decisions while filly exposed in the room."

    removed and his teaching partners, removed and removed, favor clearing much of the room and processing that information from outside the doorway before making entry, if possible. Their preferred technique is "slicing the pie."

    Assume a three-officer cell is moving down a hallway approaching a bedroom doorway on the left, with another uncleared room farther ahead.

    In a continuous, fluid motion, the first officer "pies" across to the opposite (right) side of the bedroom door with his gun up, ready for an encounter that might originate from inside the room. The second officer moves with him but his concentration is down the hallway, protecting the team from a threat that may emerge down range. Officer No. 3 stays on the left side of the door, monitoring what he can see inside the bedroom from his vantage point.

    By the time the first and third officers make entry, they may have been able to visually clear 75% or more of the room, thereby significantly minimizing the unknown risk they may confront there.

    "If a shooting occurs while slicing the pie, you're at a greater distance from the threat than with the button hook and have the opportunity to make better decisions," removed says.

    Particularly if you're holding a shoulder weapon, being able to shoot proficiently from either your strong or support side will allow you to widen your perspective into the room while exposing yourself to less visibility by anyone inside, removed points out.

    He strongly encourages the use of marking cartridges during practice "to impose reality in training." You'll see the advantages and disadvantages of each technique and "you'll learn to used controlled-speed movement and maintain a good shooting platform during room entries or get your butt shot off," he predicts.
    Magnum |TG-18th|


    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


  • #2
    Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

    Good post. I do not play Swat 4 but in my real life we pie, as you have stated before entering a room. You are right, you can see a substantial amount of the room prior to entering. We use a 5 man team, one left, one right of the door with our other members stacked. Once we have pied the door the first two button hook in as the others cover from the door way until all members are in.


    18th SF Operational Detachment Delta

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

      Nice.

      So does this mean that we will be able to slice the pie if we bring SWAT4 back?
      A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

      "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

        Agree my department uses the slicing the pie in real life
        I came I saw I got blowed UP

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

          I know I know... REALLY old thread. But I saw this article and immediately had to say something about it. :P


          The author is comparing apples to oranges. I didn't read through the whole article... stopping towards the beginning of it where he/she justifies the other technique over the first. The fact is the situation always dictates the response.

          For example... on an active shooter (someone who has just fired off rounds or is currently shooting), you hit fast and hard and move through rooms at a rapid pace. Slicing isn't a technique that will benefit anyone.

          However, enter a warehouse at night where a possible burglary in progress is occurring and you'll want to move slowly. You'll check your corners nice and tight, and pie wherever possible.

          So you can't compare the two tactics at all as far as I'm concerned. But the author made a critical mistake. There's a technique called "crossing" that works hand in hand with hooking (or button hooking). It allows the Officer the opportunity to cross the doorway into territory that they've already gotten an eye on. If a team is well trained enough they'll know where to go (opposite of the person before them).

          I'm not exactly sure what qualifications this author has, but he is missing a lot of vital information. No one specific tactic is above the other and no one specific tactic is used in a certain scenario. Personally I wouldn't pie if the suspect had an idea that I was there (and we're supposed to announce our presence when we enter). If they knew I was coming and had an eye on the door, I'd have a much better shot clearing the frame of the door than standing in it. Keep in mind most frames can be shot through too... so you're a target even after you fall back into the hallway. At least if you and your team take the room, you're likely to gain ground and cover along the way.
          "They laugh at the law... but they don't laugh at me."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

            1. Why are you bringing up a thread from so long ago, with a game no one plays anymore?

            2. I read your comment in the SWAT4 review...again, what game were you playing?

            3. This topic was just one part of a number of tactical discussions we had back then when Tactical Gamer was really, Tactical Gamer. (and it was a copy/paste from a SWAT tactical article, not something pulled out of the air.)

            4. Thiers a whole bigger article on the tactics we used as a group when playing this game.

            5. And what qualifications does the author have? If you only knew.

            Point is... read and know what your talking about before posting rebuttals and comments.
            Magnum |TG-18th|


            We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

              forgive him magnum for he knows not what he do..... :)
              that sounds like a good idea trooper.
              -Vulcan

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                lol... well at least he got me thinking about double clicking that SWAT4 shortcut I still have on my desktop. ;)
                Magnum |TG-18th|


                We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                  PM coming back with a little bit more information. I also answered those numbered questions you had posted. My apologies for reviving an old thread. :P
                  "They laugh at the law... but they don't laugh at me."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                    NP... was a misunderstanding, it's been cleared IMO.
                    Magnum |TG-18th|


                    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                      Originally posted by Magnum50 View Post
                      NP... was a misunderstanding, it's been cleared IMO.
                      ;)

                      I hope some of you guys still have the discs around. Be nice to get in-game with some people who know what they're doing. Even if the game is ancient.
                      "They laugh at the law... but they don't laugh at me."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                        you post a date and we will see if we cant find a server to improve.
                        that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                        -Vulcan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                          I got the disc right next to me I just got to install it ;)
                          |TG-6th|Spaz

                          "You the people have the power, the power to create machines, the power to create happiness. You the people have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: "Slicing the pie" vs. "button hook" for room entry

                            I went back to XP and everytime i sit down at the computer i end up eying the SWAT4 box. I think I lost the SS expansion though

                            Comment

                            Connect

                            Collapse

                            TeamSpeak 3 Server

                            Collapse

                            Advertisement

                            Collapse

                            Twitter Feed

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X