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  • Let's talk about squads..

    After playing the beta yesterday, I was trying to think of the utility of squads on BF3.

    In BF2, a squad was a distinct unit that could be directed by the CO and/or the SL, with waypoints and objectives shown on a map. The SL was an important person, as he was the only person the squad could spawn on. A squad could have up to 6 members, which allowed a certain diversity needed for a squad to achieve its objectives.

    In BF3, none of those things apply. So, other than the possibility that squadmates will be able to talk to each other privately, and the ability to spawn in on each other, what other benefits are there to having squads in the game?

    Note: I'm not ranting, just trying to initate a discussion about how to view squads in this new era of BF.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

  • #2
    Re: Let's talk about squads..

    Alan Kertz
    @Demize99 Alan Kertz
    @jtownjt Voice chat is by default all team. You can then pick channels.
    https://twitter.com/#!/Demize99/stat...05876439695360

    With that said I will speculate maybe there will be a command channel where either the squad leads or a designated commander can all chat possibly?

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    • #3
      Re: Let's talk about squads..

      Having only played Rush, the same dynamics from BC2 apply - inside the squad you still have a spawn point (and now you are rewarded with points for being one), and ready supplies/revives. Between squads, we still need coordination - "Charlie will watch right side", "Bravo will attack A", etc. which we can use the team VoIP for, and possibly channels based on the previous post. But we still need intra-squad communication/planning to make this what we hope it will be, IMHO.

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      • #4
        Re: Let's talk about squads..

        Well judging by that tweet, I hope the ability to talk to the entire team is something we can disable server side.

        Squads now no longer exist in the classic sense, for the reasons pointed out by Tempus. At this point, I find it extremely difficult to even get any teamwork within a squad, never mind within a team. As it stand, I really don't see a use for them, which is a shame. Maybe if they can figure out the voip properly at least we will have that, but as it is currently, it is just a way to break up a blob of players into smaller blobs to give the illusion of a wider battlezone. SL spawn is possibly a nice feature, but doesn't seem to work right for me in the beta, unless by pure "luck" I have been made the SL every single time, as I have the uncanny ability to spawn on everyone in my squad every single time. It truly feel like the squad ability was not thought out, and was tacked on. I am hoping this will be more positive come the actual release with perhaps more working features.

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        • #5
          Re: Let's talk about squads..

          I'm completely banking on the squad mechanics being different in the final game compared to the way it is implemented in the current beta.
          "Looking for brahs to come fight crime with me" - Unload



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          • #6
            Re: Let's talk about squads..

            Originally posted by Tempus View Post
            In BF2, a squad was a distinct unit that could be directed by the CO and/or the SL, with waypoints and objectives shown on a map. The SL was an important person, as he was the only person the squad could spawn on. A squad could have up to 6 members, which allowed a certain diversity needed for a squad to achieve its objectives.

            In BF3, none of those things apply. So, other than the possibility that squadmates will be able to talk to each other privately, and the ability to spawn in on each other, what other benefits are there to having squads in the game?
            I don't like 4 person squads and strongly prefer 6 (or better yet, 8) person squads. That said, the squad is still a valuable part of the game. I LOVE that you can spawn in on your squad and not just the SL. It was such a waste in BF2 to keep the SL as a mobile spawn point, hanging back from the action, and allowing to spawn in on anyone opens up more tactical options.

            Yes, they're more like true fireteams now, and SL's will supposedly have minimap objectives and SL-to-SL communications in the final release, so I'm not seeing a huge difference in the role or utility of squads relative to BF2. I'd prefer being able to lead more than 3 ppl as SL, but I'm happy with leading fewer if I can also talk to another SL or more, leading to possible intersquad coordination of 8, 12, or more people on an ad hoc basis.

            The squads are small self directed workteams, same function as in BF2. People are commiserating over the lack of a CO, but that role went vacant 95% of the time during non-scrim play in BF2, and of the 5% it was populated, far less than half of that was having a competent CO in the spot. It was great on paper, but piss poor in practice, with the exception of scrims. The new implementation should be much better for day-to-day games, IMO.
            Beatnik

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            • #7
              Re: Let's talk about squads..

              The squad is a logical unit that has some advantages over a team that is not broken into squads.
              1. spawn on squadmate. The entire squad needs to have situational awareness of where each member is located relative to the enemy. Having one guy hang back as a spawn point is a bad idea and usually a waste of a gun. I thought a player could get something like a spawn beacon which may make having to keep everyone up no longer relevant.
              2. use of voip. Squad voip coms are significantly different from teamwide voip coms when used appropriately. The information that is communicated in squad voip coms is far more detailed and focused on what your squadmates are doing. VOIP is what enables a squad to become a single coordinated entity. Squads exist on a continuum of self organized to led by a SL that will micromanage the squad and their actions. But any organization beyond seeing a name in green and being able to spawn on them will come from VOIP and will be imposed upon the game by the squad members choice.
              Not being able to place waypoints on a map as a SL will be sorely missed.

              “Up, sluggard, and waste not life; in the grave will be sleeping enough!” Benjamin Franklin

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Let's talk about squads..

                I see squads still having a role in BF3, and if people desire, a much greater one than in BC2.

                With a properly functioning squad you get:

                better situation awareness

                a more immersive experience

                a more powerful fighting unit (better force ratios)

                and simply more fun.

                I know I do not need to sell the idea of a squad to TGers, but I think that BF3 will be a much better game with cohesive squads.

                I hope to play in a squad with regular squadmates under the command of an SL (or as an SL) and within an isolated squad-only (plus CO as the case may be) VOIP or TS channel.

                I will not play much in an open teamwide teamspeak channel as is seen in BC2 -- that is just too much noise and too little squadplay.
                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Re: Let's talk about squads..

                  Personally I don't think VOIP is required to create the type of inter-squad communication we crave. Certainly it would be great if it was in the game and it worked, but there is nothing stopping us from breaking TS into squad channels and using them appropriately. TeamSpeak use is far more prevalent today than it was back in the days of BF2/2142, and with our TS sever being easily accessed there is nothing stopping the non-TG players on our severs from hopping in and joining the right channel. If a player has a mic, and wants to play the game as we do, they will not mind using TS at all.

                  I was disappointed this never happened in BFBC2. But the maps in that game were so small and so fast it made more sense to work as a team rather than individual squads (most of the time).

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                  • #10
                    Re: Let's talk about squads..

                    How to create a squad through Battlelog


                    Ops wrong thread.. Oh what the heck.. It's sort of relevant
                    Nubhar

                    - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Let's talk about squads..

                      "1.When building a squad you need to first create a party in battlelog.
                      2.Next the leader of that party needs to find the server and bring the party with him while joining."
                      And that is just an insane design. What were they thinking?
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Re: Let's talk about squads..

                        Has a BF2 style minimap command feature (Move here, Defend here, Attack here) been confirmed/denied/maybe? That is a huge feature for signaling your squad and a must for final release. I think it's an equally if not more important feature than VOIP.
                        |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
                        "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
                        - Check me out on The Onion
                        - I'm on the local news!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Let's talk about squads..

                          Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                          And that is just an insane design. What were they thinking?
                          hmm.. I don't know.. Maybe

                          "Hey lets build a nice feature for friends to get together be able to talk with each other and join a game together. We should also have this feature ready for the beta since it will be an old build and we don't have the confirmed in game VOIP all set yet and the squad system is borked in this build such as creating/joining squad and SL only tools is working for everyone. Yes I know it's not perfect but at least it will give people something to play with and use under the beta"

                          But what do I know?
                          Nubhar

                          - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Let's talk about squads..

                            Originally posted by Amplitudo View Post
                            Personally I don't think VOIP is required to create the type of inter-squad communication we crave. Certainly it would be great if it was in the game and it worked, but there is nothing stopping us from breaking TS into squad channels and using them appropriately. TeamSpeak use is far more prevalent today than it was back in the days of BF2/2142, and with our TS sever being easily accessed there is nothing stopping the non-TG players on our severs from hopping in and joining the right channel. If a player has a mic, and wants to play the game as we do, they will not mind using TS at all.
                            In theory you should be right, but in practice built-in VOIP is a necessity. Using BC2 as an example as a game that did not have working VOIP, we just couldn't ever nail down the proper use of TS squad channels. Over the past year and a half, at various times, a portion of the TG BC2 community would advocate the use of TS squad channels and being rigorous about using them properly. It would never last if it happened at all. People just reverted to having entire teams sitting in a squad channel. Some people never bothered to pay attention to what squad TS channel they should be in or break into proper ones after seeding the server. Some people simply preferred team-wide channels. Hell, for those times when everybody shared the same channel while seeding the server, you'd be amazed at how many times someone would suggest that it was time to break into proper team channels and people would ask "Why?" or "this is more fun".

                            And of course there is the issue of talking to people that aren't TG'ers or regulars on our server. Yes they could join our TS server, but how many do? Few even try, and of the few that do, I would imagine a lot of them never make it in once they realize they have to create a TG account first and register their TS ID. There's just no proper replacement for in-game VOIP.
                            "Looking for brahs to come fight crime with me" - Unload



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Let's talk about squads..

                              Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                              And that is just an insane design. What were they thinking?
                              When you look at Battlelog as a replacement for real, in-game VOIP, it fails horribly. But then remember that the majority of gamers are not part of a gaming community and probably don't have access to a Vent/TS server. When you look at it from the perspective of gamers who just play with their buddies, Battlelog's Party system is actually a pretty nice feature.

                              Let's just hope that proper in-game VOIP is still in the cards.
                              "Looking for brahs to come fight crime with me" - Unload



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