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  • Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

    I understand many people's belief that statistic-tracking causes players to alter their in-game behavior and has ruined the FPS genre. However, I assert that the problem is not the availability of stats and a progression system, but rather the way the game has been designed to incentivize a certain style of play. This is an inherently flawed game and in my opinion, those flaws cater more to the selfish, stat-obsessed play many are complaining about.

    For instance, if the maps were larger with with more distance between capture points with a larger cap radius and longer spawns for vehicles, I think play would improve immensely. The maps and gameplay are so condensed right now that in order to be successful, you must adapt your style of play. EXAMPLE: I was in a great squad the other night that communicated and had Action Plans to take specific capture points; however, because we took so much time planning and coordinating on one objective, we wasted many resources on one flag that had little affect on the overall team score. Without proper leadership and coordination among all squads, the game devolves into pretty much chaos on these restricted maps. If you aren't constantly capturing flags, you're likely to lose to teams that run flag to flag capping as fast as possible, disregarding well thought-out tactics. I am not saying I agree with this, but the game is designed to reward this type of behavior.

    Until this game is moddable, I don't think you can force players to play the style of play TG aspires to. Taking the scoreboard away will not fix the problem. Blame the developers who create incentive for that type of play by the way they award points. Stat-tracking can be used for so many things that enhance the fun of the game without affecting how players specifically play. I want to see how many tanks vs. say choppers I take out. It's fun to see what "type" of player I am. It's fun to see who are the better players consistently over time. I enjoy seeing what weapons I am good or bad with. For me, it's not about "how many more kills do I need to raise my K/D?" (just check my stats! lol). I love the fact that someone can see my stats and get an understanding of the type of player I am (I love capturing flags and reviving people!). Yes, removing stat-tracking will cause those stat-obsessed players to take their selfish play elsewhere; BUT, for some, it also removes that little reward they get for playing more carefully. I compare it to playing Poker without money involved: people play differently knowing that there is no real risk. I know many don't think this way, but for a lot players, that little bit of risk is effect their stats have on the way other players view them. When you think about it, it's no different than stat-tracking in sports. You will always have the self-obsessed players who only care about their stat-line; but you also have true team players (the epitome of a TG player, no?) that care first and foremost about the team, but also realize the effect stats have on how other players/teams/fans view them individually.

    In closing, the main point I am making is that people should not blame stats for the unwelcomed play that many are seeing in BF3; they should be blaming DICE for the way the game was designed and the lack of Mod and Admin tools to change the gameplay incentives to customize the game more for Tactical Gamer's style-preference.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

    As I have said many times, it is this "persistence" and "ranked" stats that continues to push the balance of the server population into something not TG. It encourages players to stay on the winning team regardless of what is really happening to the team that is getting rolled. There might be the same number of players, but when the bottom 4-7 players on the loosing team have less than 300 points it more than likely means they have joined the server recently, because other players realized that the teams are not even and went to play elsewhere, and why bother playing on a server that allows teamstacking.

    Why take a hit to my precious KDR and W/L stats by moving to the team getting rolled when I can stay where I am at? This is the problem with ranked. Without that stat tracking no would care who won, but how well the round panned out strategically. Which is why I started playing here to begin with, the teamwork, the communication, not for a pixel ribbon.

    AS for the whack-a-mole gameplay, again that is caused by "persistence" and stats. Got to cap flags to gain points to gain that next rank and another pixel star on my eagle. If all the servers were unranked, we wouldnt have to worry about points in any fashion. People would play for the enjoyment of the game, like it should be. Playing for stats and pixel ribbons is not what TG is about.


    Tactical Gamer has changed many game titles to play more in line with the Primer in the past. Unranked BF2 was a big hit here before, I dont see why BF3 cant be that way too. Why? Because too many players are more interested in persistence and unlocks and stats than playing the TG way. Sure we can blame DICE, or we can play the game that TG wants to play it, right now, it looks like most vote to play it DICE's way.
    theeANGELofDEATH(Steam/Origin)
    E Pluribus Unum
    Sarcasm is just another free service I offer
    Si vis pacem, para bellum .. Molon Labe

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    • #3
      Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

      KJ, I share most of your sentiments regarding stat-tracking. I agree that it is a double edged sword that can be utilized in a positive way while it can also be the cause of selfish play. While I'm a pretty big sports guy, I'm weary of comparing anything that we do here at TG to team sports. Competitive team sports cultivate the mentality of winning at all costs which isn't something we're trying to emulate here.

      Angel, I simply cannot agree with your correlating stat tracking to teamstacking issues. Was there never any teamstacking threads back in the Unranked BF2 days? What about in PR or POE?? There are many other, bigger reasons why unbalanced teams happen.

      I'm seeing a lot of generalizing going on here. I really don't care for this idea that if you ever look at your stats then you're automatically a "stat whore", you don't care about teamwork and you're not a true TG person. There's no evidence that being aware of your stats and being a good team player are mutually exclusive.

      Yes, teamwork always comes first. But what's wrong with being a team player while also improving your overall game. I can look at my stats page and realize I die too often, I play too recklessly and I need to slow down, I don't spot enemies enough, I don't repair or revive often enough, I'm inaccurate with a certain gun so I should learn how to shoot it better and the list goes on. There's no reason why I can't work on those aspects while playing with a team-first approach. For an analytical person like myself, there is plenty of helpful information that can be gleaned from a stat page and in my opinion none of it makes me a selfish player.

      I'm all for trying out the unranked server, but can we please just kill this stereotype of *stat tracking = selfish player*.
      "Looking for brahs to come fight crime with me" - Unload



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      • #4
        Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

        It is very difficult, if not impossible, to tell what motivates individual players by simply looking at their stats. In some cases, stats may be a very poor indication of player skill, as stats do not reflect many aspects of sound tactical play and teamwork (for example, I think I got a whole ten points for carrying my squad over the ridge on Damavand (sp?) Peak in a helo and helping to secure our win -- wheee. Stats do not fully take into account the impact of ones actions on the game's outcome, given the complexity of tactical teamwork).

        Yes, some do place a great deal of importance on their individual stats, weapons handling, CBQ skills, and so forth, and yes, this may in some cases erode teamplay. But can we assert that the lack of such rewards and stat tracking would alter the play style? I am doubtful. Such play styles probably arise from deeper issues of personality.

        And as Voodoo rightly notes, placing significance on stats is not necessarily mutually exclusive with being a good or excellent team player.

        As to KidJesus' claim that "many people's belief that statistic-tracking causes players to alter their in-game behavior" -- is there any anecdotal evidence or otherwise to support the claim? I ask not to cast aspersions on the claim itself but out of simple intellectual curiosity. This belief is one I am unfamiliar with and would like to document its place in online gaming culture.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

          Yes, some do place a great deal of importance on their individual stats, weapons handling, CBQ skills, and so forth, and yes, this may in some cases erode teamplay. But can we assert that the lack of such rewards and stat tracking would alter the play style? I am doubtful. Such play styles probably arise from deeper issues of personality.
          Bloody well said. I was on a non-TG server today and felt utter disgust when the MVP player near the end of the round typed into all chat "Number 1, bitches!". People started telling him that he wasn't doing any teamwork at all, and he responds, "Who gives a **** about teamplay? I'm number 1." Admin banned him shortly after, rightly so.

          He was just doing things to boost his score, such as going over to random dead bodies, and rezzing them, knowing they'd die from incoming sniper fire the instant they try to get up. He teamkilled me just so he could get the extra 50 points to be the first one to step onto an enemy flag to capture it. That's some deep serious personality issues manifesting their way into the Battlefield. Not good.

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          • #6
            Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

            My personal opinion is that the one stat that may indicate the most significant contribution a player adds to a team is probably w/l record. It is true that despite scoring very few points, one's contribution could have been what won the match. KDR does hold some weight because a negative is detrimental to the team generally speaking.

            Generalizing a little further, folks with higher W/L ratios tend to also have higher stats in other areas, but the value of that is debatable since solid twitch players with good basic strategy can certainly make a difference, so tactically speaking, they may not be what wins the round but physically, they left a lotta folks at room temperature. I am rambling now, and certainly am not an authority on strategy, nor am I a twitch player, so take that and 5 bucks and go to starbucks.
            sigpic

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            • #7
              Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

              The only stat I've checked is my accuarcy and when I do I cry a little and go to bed.
              Nubhar

              - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

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              • #8
                Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                Originally posted by ANGELofDEATH View Post
                As I have said many times, it is this "persistence" and "ranked" stats that continues to push the balance of the server population into something not TG. It encourages players to stay on the winning team regardless of what is really happening to the team that is getting rolled. There might be the same number of players, but when the bottom 4-7 players on the loosing team have less than 300 points it more than likely means they have joined the server recently, because other players realized that the teams are not even and went to play elsewhere, and why bother playing on a server that allows teamstacking.

                Why take a hit to my precious KDR and W/L stats by moving to the team getting rolled when I can stay where I am at? This is the problem with ranked. Without that stat tracking no would care who won, but how well the round panned out strategically. Which is why I started playing here to begin with, the teamwork, the communication, not for a pixel ribbon.
                Not only this, but the unlocks are tied into how you play. In BF2, unlocks were merely a score total in a specific class. In 2142, unlocks were score totals in any class. There were no "I'm not going to play with a medickit, i have to get 10 grenade launcher kills to unlock my smokes". There was no "I have to get 100 kills with this rifle so i can unlock my RDS and nightvision scopes" even when using a different weapon would be more tactically viable. There was no "I have to take the tank all day, or i can't unlock my 3rd seat!" vehicle whoring. And now we have TF2 weapon unlock achievements (the assignments) which reinforce even more of this. "I need to play SQDM so i can get a rifle" "I need to get 10 headshots to unlock a rifle".

                It's not just about w/l ratios or KDR. That's a part of it. The other part is ranked play actively reinforces point whoring and stats because thats how you unlock weapons and attachments. I have over 30 hours in BF3. I still haven't unlocked the NV scope on any weapon. The furthest i've gotten is with shotguns because i play close-in medics and engineers, and any kit that my squad needs, regardless of my own personal "advancement".

                <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
                <04:16:25> "|TG-XV| Tralic": this channel is so gay
                DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

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                • #9
                  Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                  Thanks KJ for creating a thread on this, and Angel for driving the discussion. Angel, my statements below are not meant to be directed at you, you make some good points below that have been partially brought up in other threads but I am putting my thoughts here.

                  Originally posted by ANGELofDEATH View Post
                  As I have said many times, it is this "persistence" and "ranked" stats that continues to push the balance of the server population into something not TG.
                  I don't understand the 'not TG' comment. We are a very diverse community, and there are many different reasons people play games. I don't get this mentality at all, and it's been present in quite a few threads on BF3.

                  It encourages players to stay on the winning team regardless of what is really happening to the team that is getting rolled. There might be the same number of players, but when the bottom 4-7 players on the loosing team have less than 300 points it more than likely means they have joined the server recently, because other players realized that the teams are not even and went to play elsewhere, and why bother playing on a server that allows teamstacking.
                  As Voodoo already said, these issues were quite prevalent in several 'unranked' titles here at TG.

                  This is the problem with ranked. Without that stat tracking no would care who won
                  Totally disagree. Games have winners and losers. The thought that you can't be TG if you care about winning is false. I think maybe the point is that it shouldn't be done at the detriment of someone else's gaming experience, but that is what our 458112 team-stacking threads are for.

                  If all the servers were unranked, we wouldnt have to worry about points in any fashion. People would play for the enjoyment of the game, like it should be.
                  But we all have different criteria for enjoyment. I enjoy unlocks, it adds to the game for me. I enjoy the stats, it adds a dynamic to the game. I play to win, but I switch sides. I get worried when statements are made about what is TG and what is not, as I have been here quite a while and made a rather large investment in this community, and when I see I don't meet these TG 'criteria' I get a little worried that I am in the wrong place.

                  Playing for stats and pixel ribbons is not what TG is about.
                  Where is this definition of "TG" coming from? I don't understand these broad generalizations and attempts to define TG, when we are all TG. The primer speaks about winning with dignity, honor, and skill. That is our compass.


                  Tactical Gamer has changed many game titles to play more in line with the Primer in the past. Unranked BF2 was a big hit here before, I dont see why BF3 cant be that way too. Why? Because too many players are more interested in persistence and unlocks and stats than playing the TG way. Sure we can blame DICE, or we can play the game that TG wants to play it, right now, it looks like most vote to play it DICE's way.
                  Or maybe we are just playing the game we were given, and enjoying it for that. The use of the word "we" above seems to imply that we all hold the same exact view, which I can assure we don't. "We" haven't acquiesced, and in my opinion "we" aren't so much better than the rest of the world that we have to twist every nob to wrench each title into the perfect "TG" environment, because there are likely several views of what TG is, all of which conform to the primer, and I believe to what TG 'stands for'.

                  I have met so many new faces in BF3, and I believe the less we mess with settings the more new faces we will get. Except for maybe a few nights when the title first came out, the previous TG regulars couldn't fill a server anyways. Almost every night now, there is only one server populated.

                  I know it's a tough balance between attracting new players and holding to our principles. The more we restrict what TG can be, the more likely we will be playing on empty servers.

                  Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                  Yes, some do place a great deal of importance on their individual stats, weapons handling, CBQ skills, and so forth, and yes, this may in some cases erode teamplay. But can we assert that the lack of such rewards and stat tracking would alter the play style? I am doubtful. Such play styles probably arise from deeper issues of personality.
                  I am guessing there is a broad spectrum of how much importance people place on individual stats, weapons handling, etc., which is why I get concerned when I see 'definitions' of what TG is or isn't. I can't tell if you are or aren't saying that if you care about these things you have a personality 'issue' : )

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ProjectNA View Post
                    Thanks KJ for creating a thread on this, and Angel for driving the discussion. Angel, my statements below are not meant to be directed at you, you make some good points below that have been partially brought up in other threads but I am putting my thoughts here.



                    I don't understand the 'not TG' comment. We are a very diverse community, and there are many different reasons people play games. I don't get this mentality at all, and it's been present in quite a few threads on BF3.



                    As Voodoo already said, these issues were quite prevalent in several 'unranked' titles here at TG.



                    Totally disagree. Games have winners and losers. The thought that you can't be TG if you care about winning is false. I think maybe the point is that it shouldn't be done at the detriment of someone else's gaming experience, but that is what our 458112 team-stacking threads are for.



                    But we all have different criteria for enjoyment. I enjoy unlocks, it adds to the game for me. I enjoy the stats, it adds a dynamic to the game. I play to win, but I switch sides. I get worried when statements are made about what is TG and what is not, as I have been here quite a while and made a rather large investment in this community, and when I see I don't meet these TG 'criteria' I get a little worried that I am in the wrong place.



                    Where is this definition of "TG" coming from? I don't understand these broad generalizations and attempts to define TG, when we are all TG. The primer speaks about winning with dignity, honor, and skill. That is our compass.




                    Or maybe we are just playing the game we were given, and enjoying it for that. The use of the word "we" above seems to imply that we all hold the same exact view, which I can assure we don't. "We" haven't acquiesced, and in my opinion "we" aren't so much better than the rest of the world that we have to twist every nob to wrench each title into the perfect "TG" environment, because there are likely several views of what TG is, all of which conform to the primer, and I believe to what TG 'stands for'.

                    I have met so many new faces in BF3, and I believe the less we mess with settings the more new faces we will get. Except for maybe a few nights when the title first came out, the previous TG regulars couldn't fill a server anyways. Almost every night now, there is only one server populated.

                    I know it's a tough balance between attracting new players and holding to our principles. The more we restrict what TG can be, the more likely we will be playing on empty servers.



                    I am guessing there is a broad spectrum of how much importance people place on individual stats, weapons handling, etc., which is why I get concerned when I see 'definitions' of what TG is or isn't. I can't tell if you are or aren't saying that if you care about these things you have a personality 'issue' : )
                    Bingo

                    Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk
                    "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

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                    • #11
                      Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                      Nobody's brought it up thus far, but I'm curious as to why you believe flag hopping isn't a valid tactic, KidJesus. I generally run a very mobile squad, and while we do sit and defend flags when it's feasible, I take into account the overall battlefield and the effect the enemy team has on our flag count. If I'm finding that we're outgunned defending the flags we have, I'll take my squad on a flag hopping run so that we can capture enough flags in a short enough time span that the enemy team doesn't have time to catch up and is spread too thin to concentrate their forces. It's a tactic we used very successfully in 2142 both on the TG servers and in competition play. It's not something I do to improve my personal score; it's something I do to get our team one step ahead of the enemy and regain the initiative.

                      I'm glad you voiced your thoughts on all this--it sounds like there could be some good discussion and a bit more understanding of differing community perspectives that grows out of this.

                      Edit: I can't +rep you again so soon, Project, but well said.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                        I just enjoy playing! but the unlocks have alot to do with getting points

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                        • #13
                          Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                          I agree completely with Project's post and Voodoo's post. My opinions on this matter have already been stated well by the both of them. However, I do have a few things to add.

                          I don't understand why so many of you are jumping right to the conclusion that someone who keeps track of their stats is automatically a "stats-whore." If we're going to look back on BF2 and 2142, then it should also be noted that there was built in stat tracking in those games as well. Remember the BF2 main screen? Remember how it had a tab called "BFHQ" and a subtab called "Stats"? How is the stat tracking any different there than it is here? The only difference I can see is that BF3's is more accessible because of Battlelog, and even then you still had 3rd-party stat websites for BF2 and 2142. Near as I can tell there's no difference at all.

                          I keep track of my stats. I'm very interested in keeping my K/DR and my W/LR above a 1.5 each, and to improve them when possible. I do not do this because I am obsessed with my stats, I do this because I feel that these are reasonable goals for myself that ultimately help make me a better player. However, I strive to accomplish this within the bounds set by the primer and our SOPs, which means that I am putting the needs and goals of my team and squad first. Improvement of my stats is merely a positive side-effect to working with my squad and team. I simply do not see how you can only be working to improve your stats or working to improve your team. They both go hand in hand to me. If you work for your team, your stats will improve and reflect it accordingly. This is not a black or white issue.

                          Further, I see unlocks and service stars as positive rewards for whatever role I am filling at the time. Some of you may argue that "teamwork should be it's own reward" but I just like seeing nice shiny things show up on my screen to tell me I'm improving and playing well. In ranked, the shiny ribbons and medals mean something, and that meaning is whatever you personally interpret it as being.

                          As for teamstacking, I believe most players will not switch teams because they do not see it as a problem that they should have to fix, because they do not want to leave the squad that they are with, or because they simply do not want to see the "Your Team Lost" screen. It could be any number of reasons, but blaming the entirety of the problem on the stat tracking completely and totally absurd to me. That is a generalization and I have seen no data to back up the claim that the W/L ratio stat is what causes that. It has been mentioned before that "Teamstacking" threads have occurred in numerous TG titles, whether they have stat tracking or not.


                          Again, read Voodoo and Project's posts as their's are better worded than mine. Let it be known however that I find it to be completely unfair to make blanket statements labeling all of us who check our stats for whatever reasons as non-TG.

                          "Over the din of battle could be heard Lancerís maniacal laughter and it spurned us on to stay the course, not to give up, and enjoy." - Grimmfist

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                          • #14
                            Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                            Originally posted by ProjectNA View Post
                            Angel, my statements below are not meant to be directed at you, you make some good points below that have been partially brought up in other threads but I am putting my thoughts here.

                            I don't understand the 'not TG' comment. We are a very diverse community, and there are many different reasons people play games. I don't get this mentality at all, and it's been present in quite a few threads on BF3.
                            I know they are directed at me, its OK, I dont take it as a personal attack, Im not upset by your comments, and I am not going to hold it against you. I get that my views on the subject are not in line with everyone elses, and yeah the diversity of players is one of the great things about TG. I started to write a long winded reply to each point, but it would be a waste of time and effort. Not with you specifically Project, just in general.

                            I will say this, as for my continuous use of the "not TG" comment. As I was told by a long time member of TG when I first joined here, who has since disappeared from our ranks, who thought then that the "new players" were trying to "dumb down" the TG experience. He said something to effect: TG is not about conforming to what the general public wants, TG has a higher respect for other players than to do what ever it takes to win.

                            The way I see it, the Primer basically says that TG dont play games to do what ever it takes to win, it is how we play the game that matters. I guess I am wrong. Oh, sorry, I wont use "we" anymore. :row1_26:

                            I understand that most people play games specifically to win, to improve their stats, get that pixel ribbon... I didnt think that TG was for the masses, I thought we stood for something better.. again, I guess I am wrong. (****, I play to win every round, every fire fight, every encounter with a tank.. and yeah, check my stats once in a while, they just dont effect the way a play on a daily basis)

                            ....

                            Lancer, I dont think that everyone who checks their stats is defined a stats-whore, as I said, I check mine once in a while since I spend most of my play time firing RPGs/SMAWs at anything with an engine. The urban dictionary describes it better than I could, although #3 sums it up pretty well. So, yeah, if your stats are defining how you play, I would consider you a stat-whore. :row1_26:

                            And yeah, you and Voodoo are right, the teamstacking issues has been brought up in every title in gaming history, and its not going to change with BF3 until everyone makes an effort.

                            Since it is not a problem with the majority of players here I wont bring it up again. I also wont do anything to correct the situation anymore. I wash my hands of the subject.
                            theeANGELofDEATH(Steam/Origin)
                            E Pluribus Unum
                            Sarcasm is just another free service I offer
                            Si vis pacem, para bellum .. Molon Labe

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                            • #15
                              Re: Debating the Effect of Statistics Tracking in BF3

                              There are many interpretations of the primer. It is not a black and white document. One person's opinions are going to differ from another's.

                              TG is not for the masses. It is about how we play the game, not the game itself; correct. However, we can still have fun with BF3 the TG way, guys. Those that don't belong here? They'll be removed. Trust that your admin staff looks at who's good for the community, and who's bad for it. Mere participation does not make one good for the community. You gotta put in to get something in return from online communities. Wearing TG tags is not enough - everyone, collectively, must try to look past the tags and consider what this community is founded on, what it means to you as an individual, and how you can contribute.

                              For those of you who favor unranked, grab an admin when you want to seed it. Grab all your IHS friends. Bug people on steam, origin, blackberry, can and string, whatever. It's the same game, one server just tracks to your battle log and another does not. Different strokes for different folks. There is no "universal" TG setting since TG is NOT defined by a set of server settings.

                              As for ranked vs unranked. Both have their merits. Neither option is going to satisfy everyone. Right now we offer both. With some effort both can succeed. I think we should consider ceasing blame on the game and focus on how we can improve gameplay as a community, instead of blaming elements outside of our control as a community (EA/DICE).
                              Skud


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