Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

    http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3...5/1/194568746/

    Our squad had 4 people on ts, four engineers, trying to rocket and I kept laying mines.

    You will notice my score is just a bit lower than the APC/TANK (mainly APC) driver on the other team (hint he is the one with over 60 kills). There was a fair bit of chat from public on our team, but I assured them it as just abuse of an unbalanced asset.

    The funny thing was that after that map, our squad lead was convinced we were doomed on Seine because it had tanks, I assured him that map was far more forgiving because the tanks are bottlenecked. Lo and behold, it wasn't nearly the problem and we took out two tanks. After that, we actually had fun taking down the tanks in Firestorm as a squad.


    It is the map that really make the close range issues between vehicles and infantry stand out, Karkand and Davamand are the worst of all.

  • #2
    Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

    Crazy is a really good tank driver and teams up with a good tank squad, You aren't fighting some dumbass pubby, you are fighting very coordinated skilled people who know how and what to do with the vehicles.

    Changing to infantry only isn't going to solve anything, it will still happen, just with different people.

    Removing the map is just going to leave the server with less maps to play.

    End of story. End of arguement for me. Should be for you.


    Just take a break, turn off the game go cool off for a bit.
    Last edited by Brainhurts; 07-24-2012, 02:15 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

      Well I had two people in mind clicking on that link, thought confirmed. On Karkand you have nice and tidy rows/columns of death. On Seine it is more CQ for infantry but I do agree that it is not tank friendly. However it also doesn't help that the tank is an infantry eating machine and infantry have barely effective counters which in comparison to their real life versions is a complete joke.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

        Tell your squad to all go mortar - 4 mortars on a tank should easily disabled it. I've had success with it against various skilled tank-drivers on Seine Crossing, Karkand, Teheran etc.

        I would call this quite normal to the Battlefield franchise. Most remember the joy of driving around in the APC, Tank or Walker in 2142, and absolutly killing everybody - due to a good support from your squad (and commander of course).
        "The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind"
        H.P. Lovecraft

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

          You know what I can't resist not saying something.


          Seeing your score, I have to say you might be doing something wrong, I don't know what you did during that round but to me anyone going 8-30 might be doing something wrong, I can't say what or if you are doing anything wrong but it seems as if you are.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry but why do you even care about his score brain, his score doesn't matter. Obviously Crazy owned that whole team because he had finestyle and moses repairing him. Stating he was doing something wrong is wrong. To me it sounds like he was doing something right, working as a team attempting to take down a tank that was killing everyone. It just happens he was up against a very good tanker and 2 very good players. We all know how much you love tanks, you will never think they are OP but a lot of people do along with the fact Engis will have a hard time brining one down with people like Crazy driving.
            sigpic

            Former Pathfinder
            Former ARMA Admin
            Former ARMA TGU instructor
            Former TGU Headmaster
            Current Noob
            Im also pretty bad at World of Tanks -

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

              Originally posted by bolagnaise View Post
              Sorry but why do you even care about his score brain, his score doesn't matter. Obviously Crazy owned that whole team because he had finestyle and moses repairing him. Stating he was doing something wrong is wrong. To me it sounds like he was doing something right, working as a team attempting to take down a tank that was killing everyone. It just happens he was up against a very good tanker and 2 very good players. We all know how much you love tanks, you will never think they are OP but a lot of people do along with the fact Engis will have a hard time brining one down with people like Crazy driving.
              That's pretty much what happened. I did not have another negative KDR the rest of the night if I recall, though one map I was the soflam guy so that was a low score. On this Karkand, I followed my squad leader's orders as all 4 of us tried to take out Crazy.

              I get pretty tired of people telling me I don't know how to take out tanks. I took out tanks on that map all the time in BF2, I took out walkers by myself in 2142, I am in the top 28% of the world in BF3 for my kill percentage in vehicles taken out (top 9% in the world in vehicles taken out with Vehicles destroyed at 1692). Top 47% for vehicles disabled per round. So if you want to play the stats game, I think I hold up okay when it comes to taking out tanks even if I am mediocre generally speaking (http://bf3stats.com/stats_pc/Misnomer1).

              As to the mortar suggestion, good luck. That really only works against stationary tanks. Crazy knows well enough to drive in small circles on that map. He wasn't sitting still. You need a dead on hit with a mortar to do much damage. Then, you need to be slightly off target to clean off the engineers. Should be possible with 4 right? Of course that ignores the fact that you are autospotted on the minimap for every single player in the game and are likely dead as soon as you start mortaring.

              Mortars are also worthless on Davamand.

              The problem with Karkand is that there is no verticality to the map, it is essentially flat except for one hill which has obstructed views in all but one direction. If you think a soflam on Hotel (Bravo) is going to last very long you are kidding yourself. There are no locations for soflam, very limited shooting range for RPGs, nearly no shooting range for javelins.

              On the old BF2 karkand, if the armor was messing with you too much, you messed with it by destroying the bridge. Not an option here. We also had the luxury of wire guided rockets with actual speed and damage too. Oh...and landmines that were not 3d spotted. Landmines actually killed tanks instead of just disabling them and repair tool action was incredibly slow and tedious (though the commander boxes and vehicle to vehicle repairing existed...but I could also mention commander artillery on the other side of the equation).

              Tanks had blind spots back then too, you could close the distance with C4, hide in the blind spot, and then flee to detonate safely. Now with proximity scanner, thermal scope, and no blind spot, most C4 users resort to suicide detonations if they manage to get close to a tank (which is unlikely with hardcore damage).

              Tanks with proxy scanner, reactive armor, thermal scope, and 2 engies are pretty much invicible if they play conservatively. Crazy and his squad never took more than the last two points. Which is fine, they were defending. But three squads could not take down his tank at one point. All of us with rockets.


              If you won't take these maps out of the rotation or set them as IO, at least give us Jihadding back as an option. The rules don't need to protect tankers any more than DICE already has.
              Last edited by Misnomer; 07-24-2012, 10:20 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                There's two viable paths for the discussion:
                Tweaking server settings, currently vehicle spawn is 200% on Karkand, we could up it even higher, though I'm really not sure it'll help much, and may make the map unbalanced. IO would make it a custom server and impossible to find.
                And we can discuss tactics for dealing with tanks on Karkand, either by taking them out, or minimizing the damage they can do.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                  Karkand is not balanced for tanks because one team has their armor spawning on a flag. It's pretty simple.

                  Also you had the bad luck of facing crazy with an actual squad working with him I assume. If it was me with a proper tank sqd you wouldve had the same result.

                  The only thing that can defeat a proper tank driver with a proper squad, is another tank driver with a proper squad. Unless you have twp squads going after him with engineer kits, but then your team would lose because of lack of flags. Crazy is the only tanker I know at TG that is good enough to be a competition tanker, so u just had bad luck facing him with a proper squad.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                    I guess I always have a hard time with these threads I was on Crazys team for that round last night that round was tough and hard fought and close enough that there was no team scramble afterwards. The US team was constantly in the back flags with multiple squads and our squad defended the whole round and had a difficult time holding them.

                    It seems that the people who either love or detest tanks seem to focus more on score or K/D than on winning the round .

                    AL's strategies for dealing with tanks in conquest in 2 words Avoidance and Denial

                    1. A tank can only hold one flag go where they aint. As far as Ive' observed there is not enough armor on any map to hold a majority of the points on one side except the three flag version of noshar
                    1a. When the tank moves repeat Step 1

                    2. Take the flag nearest the uncap and fill it with 3 engineers combination of mines Jav's and RPG's and 1 spawn beacon / soflam and hit the armor coming out of the uncap If the tanks provision smoke they don't have thermal and are susceptible to mines and rpgs if they don't have smoke the javs will kill them gotta be careful to let them clear the base though It helps to put the soflam near the uncap pointing away from the uncap to make sure. (This works like a champ with the alpha / echo flags on firestorm and davamand)

                    3. Take the armor spawn points , this works great on Oman and Karkand One more squad hitting Foxtrot and Golf during the round you mention and crazy has nothing to drive because we cant hold it

                    I guess my point is you don't actually have to take out a specific tank usually if you can engage it / occupy it or bottle neck or delay it your teams armor will usually have free reign to dominate the map

                    The need to kill Crazy or Brainhurts mentality is kind of counter to playing the objectives in conquest and in fact is another denial tactic if you are engaging armor off a flag in no mans land your infantry is not attacking the objectives you are bound to lose.

                    My two cents enough said
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                      Originally posted by Kwalc View Post
                      Karkand is not balanced for tanks because one team has their armor spawning on a flag. It's pretty simple.

                      Also you had the bad luck of facing crazy with an actual squad working with him I assume. If it was me with a proper tank sqd you wouldve had the same result.

                      The only thing that can defeat a proper tank driver with a proper squad, is another tank driver with a proper squad. Unless you have twp squads going after him with engineer kits, but then your team would lose because of lack of flags. Crazy is the only tanker I know at TG that is good enough to be a competition tanker, so u just had bad luck facing him with a proper squad.
                      If that is true than adjusting the respawn rate of tanks doesn't make much of a difference. If it is a matter of map is frustrating and constantly getting owned unless both teams have competition level tankers then it really doesn't matter how fast the opposing team gets its tank. I suppose you could claim that it is better if you kill Crazy's tank and he doesn't get another one soon, but that goes the other way too and if some newbie rushes in to face Crazy and loses then the team is screwed.

                      I don't see this as a fix.

                      IO would make it custom, but possibly for only a round. If you use the Ultimate Map Manager plugin for procon (the guy who makes it charges $5 donation for it...silly but worth it), you can set the mode for just one map. This would allow you to say run all your other maps to get population and only when there are over 24 or something do you run one of the IO maps. I have done it on a server I run and it works okay, but we lack the manpower of a TG size community. You guys can get 8-10 TG members on most nights. That is enough to keep it steady if you rotate to an IO map.

                      It's an option. Not a great option, but an option.

                      Sadly, what breaks all of this is a tanker and a squad who know what to do to make the tank invincible. You want people to work together, you want skilled players to do what skilled players do, but it is hard to argue that the gameplay on your server is actually quality when the effects of the supertank squad are felt.

                      One other interesting thing to note Kwalc, I agree with you about the tanks tied to a spawnpoint, but oddly this round I brought up...Crazy and crew were defending that point. Our team managed to take most of the rest of the map, but could never kill Crazy's tank. So rather than being committed to defending, his team could scamper about harassing our early points (A and B) while the best squads in our group were trying to fight Crazy.

                      Now I wasn't leading, but if I were I might have been tempted to fall back to E or D and forced Crazy to come out if he wanted kills. (Which he needed because we would have won on ticket bleed if it wasn't for Crazy's kills). Hard to convince the rest of the team to do that and Crazy likely would have succeeded in killing most of us and taking E and D, but if we brought him out we might have taken advantage of the crappy map design and taken G to deny Crazy another tank. But, tanks and APCS are fast and likely could get back to us quickly. Or perhaps he wouldn't have taken the bait.

                      As Kwalc said, the only real way to beat it is another tank with an equal or better squad with equal or better tactical positioning. I should add that very few squads I have been in even have the members with perks necessary to take on another tank on an equal footing.

                      The trouble with all that is that I am talking about (barring the equal tanker squad) the coordination of an entire team to defeat a 4 player (maybe only 3) squad with a tank. There is no way that is balanced. Taking Titans in BF2142 did not take that level of coordination. It is deep play yes, but this is a public server and you guys know that even in the days of commanders getting non-tg to follow that level of macro direction is nearly impossible. That is why the balance problem is too great I feel. It is too easy for 1-3 players to ruin the entire level for everyone else.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                        I agree with Lunn, why this obsession with killing the tank? If you can't kill it, avoid it.
                        sigpic


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                          Originally posted by Al Lunn View Post
                          The need to kill Crazy or Brainhurts mentality is kind of counter to playing the objectives in conquest and in fact is another denial tactic if you are engaging armor off a flag in no mans land your infantry is not attacking the objectives you are bound to lose.

                          My two cents enough said
                          I addressed this in my post, but I think what you missed is that on Karkand, the cost of containing that tank is enough to cost the win. Crazy would not have gotten over 60 kills without squads holding him there (and believe me we fought hard, almost got G twice, mined him in three times so he had to clear).

                          And I will reiterate that the tank are blazing fast too. Containing one is not simple without hidden landmine or C4 traps (freakin 3d spotting after Q spam). RPG leaves a line of smoke back to you and even behind cover the splash damage will kill you quickly. The Javelin notifies the tank that you are about to fire so he can just swivel around in thermal mode looking for that person who must have line of sight on him if there is no soflam (which of course there isn't on Karkand). And then the javelin leaves a smoke trail as well. So while you contain, be prepared to die.... a lot.

                          Remember they were repairing while you were dead, so you need to be ready to start from scratch again.

                          So...instead of contain...You go past it and take another point, suddenly it is there...with proximity scan and thermal optics destroying your squad. Don't bother hiding, the tank sees through walls with prox. You must run and try to stay out of thermal super vision.

                          So you go to another point, whizz whirr zipp it is there doing the same to you. Next thing you know everyone in your squad is Engie trying to take out this damn thing that makes it impossible to do anything. That is why my squad lead chose to attack G constantly even after we lost the first confrontation. It was either that or lose every point on the map to Crazy and crew.
                          Last edited by Misnomer; 07-24-2012, 03:11 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                            Originally posted by general_alvin View Post
                            I agree with Lunn, why this obsession with killing the tank? If you can't kill it, avoid it.
                            A tank is not stationary. It can defend a BIG area containing a lot of flags. It can move around very quickly.

                            Example: If I am in a tank at Alpha flag on large Karkand and Delte flag starts blinking because enemies are capping it. I can move over to Delta from Alpha before they neutralize it, kill them and avoid it being taken.

                            The tank is faster and it is very easy for it to move to flags that are being taken. So, yes, it is possible for you to simply avoid it, but chances are if you avoid it, it will just cap a flag uncontested then keep rolling and capping/defending more flags. Believe me avoiding it is counter productive. If you don't count the tank(or apc) as an objective for your team to take out, it will just drive around killing people and racking up massive kd's, which HELPS it's team tremendously because there are less enemy soldiers on the ground and it eats the enemies tickets up.

                            You might avoid it as a single person or a single squad, but by the time you avoid it and cap one flag, the tank might have already killed like 10 people and capped 2 or 3 flags.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Karkand Tanks Still a Problem

                              Well said Kwalc.

                              The other option we aren't discussing Iamthefallen, is trying Rush maps in place of these broken Conquest maps to keep the variety up.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X