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  • Tank smoke.

    I just want to ask one thing,

    Do you think if the smoke on tanks had ammo instead of being infinite would be a good idea?

    It would still allow the tank to attack, it would not force the tank to hide all the time, it would be possible to hit a tank with javelins/guided missle because it could run out of ammo for its smoke shells.


    I don't see a downside to the tank, I only see an upside to fighting the tank, and I think it would be the best and only solution that does not make the tank weak or be forced to hide.


    What do you guys think about the smoke having an ammo limit for tanks?
    Last edited by Brainhurts; 08-09-2012, 07:55 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Tank smoke.

    Originally posted by Brainhurts View Post
    I just want to ask one thing,

    Do you think if the smoke on tanks had ammo instead of being infinite would help against them being "unstoppable death machines"

    It would still allow the tank to attack, it would not force the tank to hide all the time, it would be possible to hit a tank with javelins/guided missle because it could run out of ammo for its smoke shells.


    I don't see a downside to the tank, I only see an upside to fighting the tank, and I think it would be the best and only solution that does not make the tank weak or be forced to hide.


    What do you guys think about the smoke having an ammo limit for tanks?
    My gut reaction is that it would make no real difference and would likely just annoy tank drivers the very few time they ever did run out. It doesn't quite fit qith vehicle design in BF3 either where there is no limitation on any vehicle ammo and there is no way to re-arm if you did.

    The simplest and probably best 2 fixes for balance in BF3 would be to put limited ammo on the repair tool and the defib tool.

    A lone tanker is very much at risk, what makes them behemoths is engineers. It is only on maps where getting to those engineers is nearly impossible that tanks become unstoppable.

    I would like to see that fix first.

    The other fix to make javelin more effective might be: no lock on indicator only an incoming missile sound. I think you can stay with the soflam lock on sound, but the lock on from the javelin is too long for the infantry to have it also notify the tank it is coming.

    RPG needs no smoke trail, higher velocity, and the same reload time for SMAW as RPG since RPG actually reloads almost a second faster. If that seems like too much, start with the reload and the higher velocity.




    The other problem with your system of smoke is it becomes a question of two ammo counts, the smoke and the javelin. I have 4 javelin with the perk, you have 3 smoke or 5? 8? It becomes a question of how many you can defeat. We have already seen this system essentially fail on Stingers versus attack helis when skilled people run flares and ecm together... DICE's answer has been to up the number of rockets you carry. I think this is the wrong direction. Make the rockets more powerful and far less numerous. Trading countermeasures against repeated lock on rockets from the same source rockets is tedious. This is why when there is a soflam, most vehicle pilots go to kill it or run away rather than continuing to spam ECM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tank smoke.

      One of my reasoning's is that we don't need lock on weapons to give hits every time because the counter measures can't cope with it.

      An ammo counter fixes that, The counter measures are there for when you need them but you have a limited amount so you have to watch it.

      Making the repair tool have ammo is fruitless, when I am in a tank I have 2-3 people with me and they have repair tools, even if one runs out of ammo, there is another 2 to repair the rest of the way.

      I already pop smoke at the incoming sound, not the lock on, Popping at the lock on will kill you.


      Edit: Half the community is like Misnomer the other half is like me, Tanks to strong, tanks too weak, long story short, Im wrong where ever the hell I go and should probably shut up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Tank smoke.

        Originally posted by Brainhurts View Post
        One of my reasoning's is that we don't need lock on weapons to give hits every time because the counter measures can't cope with it.

        An ammo counter fixes that, The counter measures are there for when you need them but you have a limited amount so you have to watch it.

        Making the repair tool have ammo is fruitless, when I am in a tank I have 2-3 people with me and they have repair tools, even if one runs out of ammo, there is another 2 to repair the rest of the way.

        I already pop smoke at the incoming sound, not the lock on, Popping at the lock on will kill you.


        Edit: Half the community is like Misnomer the other half is like me, Tanks to strong, tanks too weak, long story short, Im wrong where ever the hell I go and should probably shut up.
        Nah I am not saying you are wrong here, just that your fix might be a little misguided. You will notice I am not saying the tanks need to be nerfed. My problem with the repair tool is that it can actually counter 3 rpgs on its own. It heals faster than you take damage (the medic pack doesn't even do that for infantry). I once kept a Humvee alive through an RPG barrage with just my lone repair tool.... that is absurd. Repair tool just repairs too fast. So my solution was to try to make it useless after a while if you lack support class.

        In BF2, no one wanted to play engineer to wrench. Wrenching was a pain and you had crap weapons. You only went engie if you were driving because of the auto-repair to nearby vehicles and the ability to fix yourself if you were out of the danger zone. Now you get a carbine that can be turned into an assault rifle, a rocket launcher, and a super fast wrench. Why wouldn't I do that on a vehicle map?

        The repair tool has actually been buffed by DICE to counter complaints that air power could kill tanks too easily. The trouble is that unbalanced it against infantry.

        Your solution is to up the likelihood that a tank will be defenseless against the javelin. This suffers from the same problem you mentioned about mine. If i run out of smoke, I swap seats with my squad member then hits his smoke...because the perk is associated with the driver. Imagine the outrage if you could jump in a vehicle but not be able to use your perk because the vehicle is "out of it."

        This is why I think a repair tool nerf fits the game more. Sure you could do it with a longer cool down period, but I actually like the idea of the disposable wrench.... have to pull out a new one and do a re-light animation after using up the old one. Just creating that gap of no repair gives anti-tank crews a chance. I might also suggest no-repair for reactive armor since that kills damage 100% for the non-top attack rocket.

        My real trouble is how fast tanks can recover while in battle. Battlelog tankers think it is their right, I think that people like you and Crazy would have the skill to retreat and repair if you started getting hit too much. You just have little reason to retreat currently with how fast and powerful the repair tool is.

        This is why I wanted you to think in terms of the defibs. It is a problem for the infantry side of things. You can literally hold down the trigger and run around with it. That is not how most use it, but when it is abused it unbalances the game (Right Kwlac?...I figure competition is still driven primarily by the defib). Repair and defib need to be ammo based devices if DICE won't make the cooldown longer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Tank smoke.

          I don't think nerfing and buffing is the proper way to balance out the game, all you end up with is useless perks and useless weapons, we already have too many in the game already we don't need more perks and weapons made so people never use them any more.

          The repair tool at the games launch was many times stronger then it is now, Then it was nerfed, then they nerfed it much worse again, its 1/5 the strength it was, its much slower at repairs If your tank is below 30% you cannot repair your tank fully on one charge of he repair tool, A steady stream of rockets is much stronger then repairs, and will take down a tank, but rarely happens because the idiots go stand in the open infront of the damaged but not even close to dead tank and get ripped apart.

          But yeah, Rpgs/Smaws could be faster and have less drop, Javelins could not go so wonky when blocked with smoke, and Maybe more damage against tanks, Along with smoke ammo.

          Repair tool nerfs/ammo is kinda silly when you have 3-4 people in a squad with one.

          I don't notice this thing about defibs either.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tank smoke.

            Originally posted by Brainhurts View Post
            A steady stream of rockets is much stronger then repairs, and will take down a tank, but rarely happens because the idiots go stand in the open infront of the damaged but not even close to dead tank and get ripped apart.
            .
            I just don't think this is true.

            You can use repair tool for 12.5 seconds before it overheats.
            Once it overheats, you have to wait until it reduces to 10% heat which takes 3.6 seconds.
            If you wait 0.4 seconds more so you wait full 4.0 second, you get to 0% heat and can use it for 12.5 seconds again.
            If you start repairing again at 10% when (90% to go for full heat), you can repair 11.25 seconds before it over heats again.
            http://symthic.com/forum/index.php?p...&threadID=1373


            An RPG reloads in 4.8 seconds a SMAW reloads in 5.8 seconds (http://symthic.com/forum/index.php?p...&threadID=2156).

            In theory you can get two off from just your launcher in the time it takes to run out of repair tool. Then it takes LESS time to cool down the repair tool than to reload your next rocket. The result is that there is never a time when a single soldier with RPGs can counter a single RPG/SMAW user...not to forget the tank shooting him.

            As an example:

            1 RPG does 36% damage to a side panel (this assumes no reactive) then 2 RPGs would do 72% and disable the tank. If I read this thread I linked above right, the repair tool heals 5 per shot and fire at 600 per minute, this means the repair tool repairs 50 damage per second (probably not % damage but raw out of the 1000 hit points a tank has). That means that to heal the 720 damage done by the 2 RPGs, the repair tool only needs to be used 14.4 seconds.

            14.4 Seconds gets us to what you said with needing 1 cool down when repairing from 30%. But, even with that cool down, you can get the tank back up to 100% though AS SOON AS THE RPG CAN RELOAD (3 x 4.8 = 14.4) That tank is back at full capacity, the engineer probably cooled down his tool while waiting for the RPG to hit (slow thing it is) and the infantry has 2 less rockets and a smoke trail pointed at his face. So at best you are going to need to fire another 3 rockets in the hope that you can beat the engie's timing on the last one now that he will be 3-4 seconds off your pace for that 6TH rocket.

            This is with the RPG, with the SMAW you are doomed because the engie is cooling his heels while you reload that third rocket.

            You want the AT soldier to move and take more time to get the rockets on target?

            That is the problem. A single engineer can 100% negate an AT soldier unless he gets a rear shot on the tank (remember I didn't give the tank reactive armor and gave the infantry side panel shots in this example to be nice).

            So you bring in a second AT soldier...might break the engineer then with enough RPGs in a row (we are still not letting the tank fire back in this scenario). They bring in a second engineer and you are done. So you see a lot of three engineer squads out there trying to take down tanks. Which...if it doesn't kill them fast enough and they spend enough rockets... works.

            Javelins are pretty similar without SOFLAM: They do 55% to the side (once again no reactive), but reload takes 3.6 seconds and lock on takes 2.25 seconds. At best you are firing 2 javelins in 5.85 seconds. An engineer repairing will heal 292 damage in the time it takes to fire the second one. This brings the tank from 45% health back up to 75% DURING RELOAD. Your next javelin will take it down to 20% and then the third will finally kill it even if it gets the 29.2% back from a repair (55% > 49.2%).

            Mind you a javeliner MUST take explosive perk to have the 4 rockets of which he needs 3 to overcome a single engineer.

            In both the RPG and javelin scenarios I gave you... the tank never has to move. If it does just turn and make these front armor shots... the AT soldier is screwed (Javelin front shot is 49...now takes you 4 rockets if your third shot hit front and the engineer repairs immediately even if you had 2 side shots before that).

            Soflam changes the picture a bit.

            Against 2 engineers on a tank you have 2 effective options:

            1. Kill the engineers.
            2. Soflam it to death.

            You are basically willing to make the javelin tougher to counter (though still taking 3 to take on a single engineer)....if the tank has abused the privilege of living too long against other javelin users. That isn't a solution to this problem.
            Last edited by Misnomer; 08-09-2012, 05:59 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Tank smoke.

              yes.

              Nerfing or buffing weapons isn't going to change anything, the tank has been nerfed and buffed many times, the overall staying alive and fighting has changed little to none from the post release game.

              Anyways, this isn't really what I asked, I asked if adding ammo to the smoke would help, not should everything be nerfed or changed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Tank smoke.

                Originally posted by Brainhurts View Post
                yes.

                Nerfing or buffing weapons isn't going to change anything, the tank has been nerfed and buffed many times, the overall staying alive and fighting has changed little to none from the post release game.

                Anyways, this isn't really what I asked, I asked if adding ammo to the smoke would help, not should everything be nerfed or changed.
                You don't seem to see that it is a big picture thing. DICE calls it "knock on effects." You change one thing and it changes many. You asked about changing smoke "would help against them being "unstoppable death machines."

                The simple answer is no, I just backed up my answer with all the reasons they would still be unstoppable death machines.

                All nerfing and buffing isn't bad, it is just when it is in reaction to something that isn't exactly the problem. Nerfing tank health at this point is pointless and migh break more than it would fix, nerfing repair tool cool down or forcing it to reload might be worth something. Smoke change as you suggested would do nothing to counter the problem as it would only affect javelin fire and would still leave an engineer in the position of forcing 4 rockets.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tank smoke.

                  I did ask about smoke, I didn't ask about what else could be changed, since it becomes a circle jerk of tanks are op tanks aren't op etc etc etc

                  It would be a squad tactic, teamwork, not 1 versus 1.

                  4 javelins 4 squad mates. Easily take down a tank working together.

                  All of your changes are directly for 1 versus 1.


                  A single infantry man alone should be able to do nothing to a tank, 2 people should not be able to, a squad working together should and can take on a tank.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tank smoke.

                    Originally posted by Brainhurts View Post
                    A single infantry man alone should be able to do nothing to a tank, 2 people should not be able to, a squad working together should and can take on a tank.
                    Then why do you want to change anything? That is how it works right now.

                    And just another gut reaction:

                    4 javelins in a squad.... Seriously? I would love to face one of those. Knife-palooza. Or as a tank you just hit your thermals instead of smoke because they have to be line of sight to lock (no soflams in your idea here) so you can just pick them off. Who needs smoke?

                    After all I said up there (that recommends only one change...longer repair tool downtime...), you think the problem is still direct fire javelins are getting deflected too much?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tank smoke.

                      Ughhhhh... 2 or 3 threads locked not enuff? Im sorry guys but this is getting old. Mis you nerf repair tools right? Well then im just gonna do what I always do anyway, like you said retreat. I dont want my guys repairing where we are being shot at... Brain, you want smoke nerfed? Well then what do you do about... well me? I dont use smoke, 80% of the time its useless to me I use thermals. I always keep a building close enough for me to dodge a jav. You wana know one solution? Add a thermals perk to inf... Something a little different... Make it a personal perk not squad, and it would take the place of extra rockets. Makes it to thermals dont work against you... and maybe even proxy if you are crouched or still. That would make things a little interresting. Lets think outside the box here guys. Either way this isn't really a place to discuss this, and im sorry to have to be the one to say this but LETS GROW UP A LITTLE! We can complain all we want here but EA/DICE cant see it. If you have a problem with some1s playstyle PM them or ask them aside in ts. I know most of whats pissing you off Mis is the way a few of us play armor. And brain I dont really understand why you keep egging him on... You both keep saying the same things over and over and over............ Its getting really freaking old. Ive made a little bit of an effort to stay out of the chopper and people have stopped complaining... Now armor is the big deal. Can we just drop this or can you 2 please keep this discussion between the 2 of you?

                      Sorry long day at work...
                      |TG| CrazySob
                      sigpic
                      Wondering where I am? Look up and wait for the inevitable sound of 2000lbs of death and destruction that is about to ruin your day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tank smoke.

                        Sorry Crazy, its not my damn fault I ask a question and then well all this crap happens.

                        Im argumentative by nature, I didn't start it this time or most of the other times, I asked a simple question "Hey do you think giving smoke an ammo counter would be a good idea?" and then its all TANKS ARE OP NERF them because i cant fight them one on one as infantry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tank smoke.

                          Originally posted by CrazySob View Post
                          Mis you nerf repair tools right? Well then im just gonna do what I always do anyway, like you said retreat."
                          Then I have denied you the area and have an opportunity to reposition. I think at this point I would take that. As I said in my other post, I expect that to be the response for people who want to repair.

                          Originally posted by CrazySob View Post
                          I dont want my guys repairing where we are being shot at... I always keep a building close enough for me to dodge a jav. You wana know one solution? Add a thermals perk to inf... Something a little different... Make it a personal perk not squad, and it would take the place of extra rockets. Makes it to thermals dont work against you... and maybe even proxy if you are crouched or still. That would make things a little interresting. Lets think outside the box here guys.
                          So an IRNV for the rocket? Otherwise the IRNV scope for infantry weapons is basically the thermal, though it has limited range since it got nerfed..unlike the vehicle thermals on some maps.

                          I am pretty sure the other option you mention is "spec ops camo." You are still quite visible in it, but it lowers your heat signature generally. I agree with your idea of it being a perk instead of extra explosives. Making proximity no better than the TUGs and possibly preventing the gunner from making use of it while in the tank would be nice (do any other tank perks work in the gunner seat? fast reload?).

                          I still think requiring ammo for a repair tool is thinking outside the box. DICE has never done it and it would make a considerable difference.

                          How about MAVs being able to mark ONE target with a laser?


                          Otherwise I basically agree with you. You are right that nothing we write here will change anything. Maybe if Brain and I develop a good enough idea we can put it on http://getsatisfaction.com/login?company=battlefield3 so it can be ignored like most other ideas.

                          At least the Symthic people on those forums I linked are trying. They actually sent a detailed report to DICE, hopefully that will at least get the long reload on SMAW changed.



                          Seriously Brain. I gave you real numbers and you know as well as I do that numbers for multiple players get too complex to model. But I did extrapolate a bit.

                          I also didn't call tanks OP and I didn't ask for them to be nerfed, only the repair tool.

                          And I explained in detail why smoke change would make no difference and Crazy gave another reason.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Tank smoke.

                            Rather than speculation about things we can't change, I would suggest focusing on the tactics of defending/attacking tanks, the analysis above is pretty good about what it takes to actually take a tank out given the current balance.

                            That provides fodder for tactics where players can plan to engage armor a bit differently.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Tank smoke.

                              Thought about it more last night Fallen. I am not sure there is really much more to say about positioning and rockets that can be said outside of the strategy thread. If I took the math I did in this thread and applied it to what is possible in game, I would say that the top priority should be killing engineers (wrenchers specifically).

                              Now I am not quite sure what other suggestions there are from that.... but here is a thought to pick apart.

                              Squad setup:

                              1- Support (Obvious ammo reasons). Any lmg, mortar for smoke or distanced clearing of engies off tank if possible.

                              2. Medic- Smoke 320 or regular 320 for clearing engies. medic pack does little to aid people getting blasted by tanks in HC.

                              3. Engineer Javelin/AT mines- AT mines if it is just too close range. Might also be able to change the tank's freedom of movement.

                              4. Engineer RPG/Repair tool - Ability to get damage quickly might pull focus off of the Javelin which is necessary to get a big enough punch. The quicker reload time will help defeat the Engie repair tools when used in combo with javelin.


                              Now if the situation allows, I would swap out the medic for a Recon with Soflam. A scoped weapon can be good for clearing Engies as well. Regardless, whomever is in this role should know that wrencher killing is their main goal. The Support needs to know he is incharge of ammo first and foremost. After that leave it to him to defend the squad as they do their work or use the mortar. Using the mortar may not be a great idea because it gives a minimap location immediately.

                              This might work, I don't have a ton of faith in it, but based on the daunting numbers I posted it is the best I could think of.

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