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  • Ctf

    Can we please declare the zone behind the flag where people spawn off limits? We have the uncaps locked off of attack in other modes for a reason, not just because the game says we can't.

    The reason we have it off limits in other modes is because the person has to spawn there and they have no way of knowing what is going on.
    For example, in 2142 we were allowed in the uncaps to destroy assets and that was it. We weren't allowed to attack anybody and if we did we got punished.

    It should be the same with CTF, it is just not off limits ingame and people take advantage of that. It is cowardly.

    It just isn't the TG way to go in a murder people for no reason. There should be no reason that someone is a sniper in our own spawn and blasting us as soon as we get in. I don't give a hoot if it is so close to the flag, that is a stupid arguement. Half the time I am dying before I can get to my own flag so it doesn't even matter if it is close anyway.

    "Quando omni flunkus moritati" -Red Green Show
    [Link to my Youtube!] [Link to my Twitch!]
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  • #2
    Re: Ctf

    Originally posted by ScratchnSniff0 View Post
    Can we please declare the zone behind the flag where people spawn off limits? We have the uncaps locked off of attack in other modes for a reason, not just because the game says we can't.

    The reason we have it off limits in other modes is because the person has to spawn there and they have no way of knowing what is going on.
    For example, in 2142 we were allowed in the uncaps to destroy assets and that was it. We weren't allowed to attack anybody and if we did we got punished.

    It should be the same with CTF, it is just not off limits ingame and people take advantage of that. It is cowardly.

    It just isn't the TG way to go in a murder people for no reason. There should be no reason that someone is a sniper in our own spawn and blasting us as soon as we get in. I don't give a hoot if it is so close to the flag, that is a stupid arguement. Half the time I am dying before I can get to my own flag so it doesn't even matter if it is close anyway.

    You will do nothing but "admin report" on CTF then. Hardly have time to play. There is 200m radius behind every flag. It is almost irrational to put that much map out of bounds and every random public on your server will stumble into the out-of-bounds area as you designate it (and of course it will be a completely arbitrary designation with nothing to indicate it on each map).

    The reality is that if you have one squad defending and the rest attacking, the defenders should be taking those guys out. Sometimes you will need to pull out an MAV and kill a beacon, sometimes you will just need to keep plugging away with respawns, but it is one of the few ways to truly break the deadlock that is CTF.

    Now, I am a defensive player, but you guys seem to take it to an unhealthy level. The number of games on your server when a team gets one cap and sits on it is amazing. That is perfectly legit as a strategy, but trying to create rules that prevent anyone from reacting and overcoming that first cap (usually done with a vehicle rush by the people who spawn in first).... that right there is what is truly cowardly.

    Stop creating rules to prevent people from out playing you (that's what they have done, they have used assets in the game to take up a position). Learn to use the maps and the assets in the game to out play them. I have played on plenty of defending squads on the TG server where we spend a good deal of time ousting people from behind us and tracking down their beacons....it was fun.

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    • #3
      Re: Ctf

      Its one of the reasons I haven't played for the last month or two because its just these horribly one sided games over and over every single time I play, whether its my team or not.


      but I do agree with one thing Misnomer said, More rules WILL NOT fix it, and I don't know how it can be fixed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ctf

        Maybe you guys could describe a bit more precisely what the issue is?
        |TG-12th| Namebot

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        • #5
          Re: Ctf

          Originally posted by Misnomer View Post
          You will do nothing but "admin report" on CTF then. Hardly have time to play. There is 200m radius behind every flag. It is almost irrational to put that much map out of bounds and every random public on your server will stumble into the out-of-bounds area as you designate it (and of course it will be a completely arbitrary designation with nothing to indicate it on each map).

          The reality is that if you have one squad defending and the rest attacking, the defenders should be taking those guys out. Sometimes you will need to pull out an MAV and kill a beacon, sometimes you will just need to keep plugging away with respawns, but it is one of the few ways to truly break the deadlock that is CTF.

          Now, I am a defensive player, but you guys seem to take it to an unhealthy level. The number of games on your server when a team gets one cap and sits on it is amazing. That is perfectly legit as a strategy, but trying to create rules that prevent anyone from reacting and overcoming that first cap (usually done with a vehicle rush by the people who spawn in first).... that right there is what is truly cowardly.

          Stop creating rules to prevent people from out playing you (that's what they have done, they have used assets in the game to take up a position). Learn to use the maps and the assets in the game to out play them. I have played on plenty of defending squads on the TG server where we spend a good deal of time ousting people from behind us and tracking down their beacons....it was fun.
          BS, that is the more civilized tone I can say on this server when talking about your statement. I can get very uncivilized right now but I am not going to.

          What I am going to say is that IT IS NOT OUTPLAYING SOMEONE TO WAIT FOR THEM TO SPAWN AND SHOOT THEM BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO REACT. Oh ok, I'll play the map....okay let me see here on strategies for not getting spawn killed. Hmmm. Oh wait, the only strategy is to spawn somewhere else! Oh wait,I can't do that either!!!

          Keep pluggin away with respawns is NOT a valid tactic, that is pumping up someone else's score. I complain very little on these forums about this server but I believe I am right about this. This is anti-TG behavior.

          We either need to make rules, or we do not need to have the maptype. This is TG, we cater to a community, not the public. If we catered to the public we would be nothing but a bunch of 14yr olds not playing anything tactically. I would understand if people did not take advantage of the system to kill people just spawning in, but people are doing it and I've seen regulars on the server doing it. THIS IS NOT RIGHT. STOP IT. It is as bad as glitching, they are both taking advantage of the system. It's against the PRIMER of all things! And yet nobody seems to care enough to do something about it.

          1) ...Create an environment conducive for mature gamers to enjoy the games they play without the everyday interference from the less-than-mature gamers.

          2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

          3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team...


          ...In Battlefield 2 "or 3" it becomes a bit more complex; when a player enters into a game they lack any form of situational awareness. They are not able to determine the situation to which they are entering and do not have the opportunity to mount a proper defensive reaction. In the real world, reinforcements would be transported in and would arrive with their situational awareness intact. An offense could be assembled in an area not currently in conflict, and a push could be made to re-take regions that have been overrun. By restricting the assaults on uncapturable bases it allows this occurrence to happen in spite of the game’s limitations. It allows both teams to organize and present themselves in a strategic and tactical manner without having their lack of situational awareness exploited by the opposing team...

          "...We all want to win when we play, but the focus at Tactical Gamer should be one of winning with some sort of dignity, honor, and skill, not because you were able to out-exploit the other team or box them into a corner built on technological weakness that gives you the advantage...." - Tactical Gamer Primer

          Show me a person who says this thing is not against the Primer, and I will show you a liar.

          It is against 1) Because the environment is no longer conducive to mature gaming.
          2) Because the mutual respect for other players is no longer there
          3) Because it is no where near the near simulation and people are exploiting the system to win.

          I will continue to report people for spawn camping. Either remove the maptype or make rules. But don't do nothing, all that solves is nothing. Do something.

          "Quando omni flunkus moritati" -Red Green Show
          [Link to my Youtube!] [Link to my Twitch!]
          [support]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ctf

            Misnomer he isn't complaining about players who are trying to get the flag... or even support their team. He is complaining about the pubs (and a few regs) who grab a sniper rifle and sit next to the spawn or right behind it and spawn kill. Yes... Moving around the flag to cut off the flow of enemy into it is a valid tactic... Spawn camping isn't. I got fed up with it last night (we still won) but still. Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot that can be done with the current map setup. Its very difficult to distinguish spawn camping and flag clearing at the moment. The spawn is just all entirely too close to the flag. I agree with scratch in almost every way, something needs to be done. Any kind of spawn killing in a TG server is far from okay...

            Either way its up to the admins on what will happen, if anything at all.


            -Crazy
            |TG| CrazySob
            sigpic
            Wondering where I am? Look up and wait for the inevitable sound of 2000lbs of death and destruction that is about to ruin your day.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ctf

              Originally posted by ScratchnSniff0 View Post
              What I am going to say is that IT IS NOT OUTPLAYING SOMEONE TO WAIT FOR THEM TO SPAWN AND SHOOT THEM BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO REACT. Oh ok, I'll play the map....okay let me see here on strategies for not getting spawn killed. Hmmm. Oh wait, the only strategy is to spawn somewhere else! Oh wait,I can't do that either!!!.
              That isn't true. If you stand perfectly still you have spawn protection. You can then react while they are reloading. This is counter intuitive and far more exploiting the system, but it is a way to deal with it.

              On the other hand, I feel no pity for the spawning argument for several reasons:

              1. By default these are the spawns available to you, you have 4 including the vehicles by default. Get a squad leader and a beacon and you get 6. Vehicles are always gone you say? Well if you spawn on rush on an aircraft carrier (think Kharg you have no options other than the vehicles to move forward.) That is part of the game to wait for vehicles if you are trapped.



              2. This is the spawn you will mostly likely complain about. None of the other CTF maps have spawns as open as this one. The algorithm won't spawn you on an enemy, so most will spawn you further back, but this one you can be seen from a long way away.




              When you spawn, go prone. The rocks will cover you. Then use 320 smoke, get to another position and take out those campers.

              Look at the image below for what the usual camper line of sight is...going prone in those rocks immediately will cover you.


              Lastly, look at that top image and look at this one



              The helicopter is 215m from the flag. The furthest back place on the map is 250m from the flag. You want to make anything behind the flag out of bounds? You have taken nearly 50% of the map out of play and forced teams to only attack from the front. So you are going to going to have to make a rule about firing from the "spawn" for tanks too, otherwise it can just sit "out of bounds" defending (thus taking C4 attacks out of play).

              That is an adminning nightmare from a practical perspective.

              I agree that spawnkilling is no fun, but there are any number of tactical options out of that situation. Quite honestly, Rush on Tehran has more of an issue on the first stage because you have no options as an attacker and can be jav locked in an actual out of bounds area. There is nothing wrong with 90% of the spawns in the CTF maps and this one has options available.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ctf

                The situation is still being discussed, but the TG rules states theres no spawn camping. What so ever, so if someone is shooting constantly into your spawn area over and over and isnt really focusing on the objective, go ahead and report them.
                Please Be Warned...
                If you see me... Im never alone....
                My Soldiers Follow and are Loyal.... Problem is... you can't see me....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ctf

                  It has to more with the unbalanced skill levels of the players rather then anything the game can do.
                  Last edited by Brainhurts; 04-16-2013, 08:25 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ctf

                    It has been my experience that those who defend it on ctf.....are the ones doing it. Give me one valid reason to sit behind the enemy spawn and spawn kill
                    "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ctf

                      Originally posted by Ven View Post
                      It has been my experience that those who defend it on ctf.....are the ones doing it. Give me one valid reason to sit behind the enemy spawn and spawn kill

                      Because there could be a tank there that can be pointed directly at the flag. So to destroy the tank you need to get close enough (javs don't work with smoke after all). You will need to eliminate enough infantry to get close. That means you shoot everyone back there.

                      That is a legitimate reason. Is it always the reason? Certainly not. But you asked for one.

                      There are people that go just to spawn kill, but that doesn't mean there is no counter to them. Unless they have killed all three of your vehicles you will have one spawn shortly.

                      Another legitimate reason is so that they can cover the flag carrier. Since the enemy team spawns right behind the flag, causing a commotion in the backfield is a good distraction.

                      Of course you loaded your question as well. If you didn't say spawnkill and just said "sit behind the enemy spawn area" there are lots more reasons you could consider legitimate. Even just getting a team to dedicate more people to cleaning out on defense instead of sitting and staring at their flag. Perhaps getting a beacon down behind because that allows parachuting onto the flag without people spawning in staring straight at you drifting down? These are tactical moves.

                      I could also say, to steal a vehicle. Something which was obviously intended by the lack of out of bounds on the map...but that pisses off Ven too. Anything that prevents staring straight ahead and knowing where the enemy is coming from must be against the rules.

                      Let us also not forget that the position I posted there as the most exposed spawn in CTF ... can be headshotted from the roof of the warehouse at the mid point easily. They don't even have to get behind you. I would suggest learning to play smart when you spawn...given the admin coverage.


                      If you guys can't handle CTF. Don't play it. If you want to squat in one corner of a map without fear of anyone getting behind you...play rush and drop these maps from your rotation. Otherwise you will be having constant whining battles in chat because your rule is counterintuitive.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ctf

                        Misnomer, once again I have to disagree with you. I've never had spawn protection save my life, in fact, for me it has been a liability. It never once has saved my life, I've actually been killed before I've even have a screen come up to react to. And do you really think it is going to take the enemy long enough to reload for me to respawn and try to take him out?

                        You want me to spawn on vehicles? Oh they'll never hear those engines start up. They'll never whip around and snipe me before I can get off the ground. It's part of the game to wait around? Everybody plays BF3 to stand in queue. The algorithm won't spawn you next to an enemy? Have you played this game? I've spawned in and immediately have been knifed during "spawn protection." Just go prone? WHEN!? I don't have a screen to look at before I am dead. Besides, you are assuming the enemy is sitting still and alone. Most of the time it is more than one guy moving and killing everybody cause he knows where we are going to spawn. I literally had a squad of snipers on me so that no matter where I spawned in at I died instantaneously.

                        This isn't about skill level, this is about doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing. This is about TG and not TG. What this is, this is not TG. I am going to follow what the admin says and I am just going to keep reporting until this issue is resolved in one way or another. But I am not going to give anymore warnings for spawn campers on CTF, I am going straight for the report.

                        You've got no pity Misnomer? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

                        "Quando omni flunkus moritati" -Red Green Show
                        [Link to my Youtube!] [Link to my Twitch!]
                        [support]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Ctf

                          Situations like this wouldn't arise if the skill level was better balanced across the players and teams.


                          It is about doing the right thing, but making it a rule banning and kicking people for doing it isn't the right thing to be doing, its why this server has an average of 12 people playing and sometimes maybe for 30 minutes it gets full.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ctf

                            Gotta agree with scratch. Its about what is and isn't TG......somewhere along the way in bf3 those lines got blurry. You could always go into noncap to destroy assets....and could not engage enemies unless fired upon. Going back there to destroy assets should be the ONLY acceptable reason to be that far back in the playing field.

                            If we can't get rules in place to make this mode TG friendly than remove it from rotation.
                            "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ctf

                              Bottom line, sitting behind an initial spawn point and camping people spawning in with little to no situational awareness and next to no chance to defend themselves is not tactical, it's not sporting and is not something we want to see here.

                              If TG members are doing this they really need to stop and then reconsider why they are even here.

                              I won't at this point bother explaining why this sort of thing is against the Primer and our goals as a Community, anyone who has even a basic grasp of either already understands this.


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