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  • 8-man squads

    In BF2, there were 6-man squads. I wonder how effective a BF3 team would be with 8-man squads?

    A lot will depend on map dynamics (number of CP's, etc), but imagine there being three 8-man squads plus two 4-man flex squads (air/armor/intel?)

    AB, CD, and EF squads would pair up and be responsible for the same objectives.

    What if all 8 were in the same VOIP channel?

    What if SL's were more like fireteam leaders?


    Damn... I'm drooling to explore the tactical possibilities of this game!

  • #2
    Re: 8-man squads

    Good shout. The "hacked" servers in the beta had "proper" 8 man squads, in that they were all in game together and could spawn properly together. Now I am not sure how that would work or if we would go down that road, but either way, I feel 4 man is restrictively small and unrealistic.

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    • #3
      Re: 8-man squads

      4-man squads are too small to accomplish anything alone when facing 32 hostiles. 8-man squads have some weight to them - they can run a piece or two of armor and still be functional infantry units. Immediately more effective.

      As CO is definitely not ingame, 8-man squads are preferable to 4-man. Consensus and coordination are much easier to achieve with 4 SLs than 8.

      Possible teamwork consequence: 'groupthink' among SLs that leads to over-compensation to minutiae and "mob mentality" teams. Think Rush defense where 2 squad leaders - that is, half the team - respond to a small breakthrough instance, giving free ground to attackers, and almost guaranteeing a successful hostile push. With fewer people in charge, it'll be paramount to have good comm protocols and simple, well-defined strats.

      Back to reality though ... where did this idea of non-standard squads come from? Did DICE/EA hint on it, or has someone found secret server options? This thread seems kind of out of the blue :)

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      • #4
        Re: 8-man squads

        LOL, no I've just been day-dreaming about all juicy possibilities now that we have Chain of Command [squad leaders] again :)

        Imagining two squads acting together as an integrated unit to attack/defend some asset.. my squad acting as a fireteam, coordinating with our sister-squad's SL.

        Suppress and flank, hammer and anvil, perimeter and close-quarters, armor and infantry, etc, etc, etc..

        <rubs hands together>

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        • #5
          Re: 8-man squads

          one idea for SL-to-SL comms is to just use the phrase "squad number" at the start of all comms
          This is to differentiate SL-to-SL comms from normal squad comms within a squad, otherwise another SL could be mistaken for a squad member taking and cause confusion

          eg
          Squad 4 holding Valley
          Squad 4 needs help at Hill, need anti armour
          Squad 4 to Squad 5 over
          Squad 4 mic check on SL to SL

          Using the "Squad number" format communicates its the special channel, yet is flexible in practice and easy to pick up by new people

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          • #6
            Re: 8-man squads

            Here's my question:

            VOIP = not in game, only in Battlelog
            Battlelog allows 8 of us to group up
            8 joining a server, will we join into the same team? If yes then:
            Will we be in our own randomly divided 4 man squads? If yes then:
            8 man squad time lets do it.

            The PCS style approach to this would be for the squads (two of them, 4 man each), to identify the SL.
            SL = the guy with the STAR next to his name. I don't know how they determine the SL, it seems to be random. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

            The SL comes up with the plan, and can work with the other SL, thus forming a 8 man fire team of sorts with two guys calling the shots. This is teamwork. Also, on random SLs, this is fine. Random SL's means leadership baton gets passed around to people so they can have a crack at it. It will eventually mean SLs have to command or they aren't doing their jobs directing what people should be doing. I see all of this as good.

            The only issue I see is Battlelog. Getting into 8 man groups is not easy. Adding a new person to the group and whether they can get on the same team doesn't seem to be thought out on DICE's side. So its highly likely even in a 8 man group, joining the same server, we'll see the group split up into 4 squads, and on opposite teams. This makes it a big crapshoot, and again we have to rely on TS, because VOIP on Battlelog is no good if you know I'm attacking X target.

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            • #7
              Re: 8-man squads

              Imagine how much mumble would help this!;) Inter squad communication based on location, so non-squad members can communicate to hold the line! :)

              I can dream damnit!

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              • #8
                Re: 8-man squads

                I am sure the more populated IHS will be running squads like fireteams. I know if I have 2 four man squads of tg16 on we will work together like fireteams in other bf games.

                Up, sluggard, and waste not life; in the grave will be sleeping enough! Benjamin Franklin

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                • #9
                  Re: 8-man squads

                  I don't think the smaller squads are necessarily a bad thing since we can just coordinate manoeuvres together. A 4 man squad following another four man squad is pretty close to an 8 man squad, right?
                  He was told that he should not kill, and he did not kill, until he got into the Army. Then he was told to kill, and he killed.

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                  • #10
                    Re: 8-man squads

                    Originally posted by Mercenary90 View Post
                    I don't think the smaller squads are necessarily a bad thing since we can just coordinate manoeuvres together. A 4 man squad following another four man squad is pretty close to an 8 man squad, right?
                    yep - that's the whole point of the thread! To explore the possibilities of that arrangement :)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 8-man squads

                      Originally posted by WhiskeySix View Post
                      LOL, no I've just been day-dreaming about all juicy possibilities now that we have Chain of Command [squad leaders] again :)

                      Imagining two squads acting together as an integrated unit to attack/defend some asset.. my squad acting as a fireteam, coordinating with our sister-squad's SL.

                      Suppress and flank, hammer and anvil, perimeter and close-quarters, armor and infantry, etc, etc, etc..

                      <rubs hands together>
                      ^^^This Big time!

                      I can see 2 4 man squads linked by being in the same TS channel, and SL's on the separate SL whisper/team channel. That would provide some serious punch squad wise, and nice clean, team comms between SL's only.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 8-man squads

                        What it really comes down to is whether SL's will work together or whether they will act inter-dependently. AKA: Don't be shy guys, coordinate coordinate coordinate as SLs!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 8-man squads

                          Well, since we're throwing out ideas..

                          How about if the VoIP solution would group two squads into one VoIP channel? So, squads 1 and 2 go into one channel, 3 and 4 into another, etc..

                          Voila! 8 man squads, just without the ability to spawn cross-squad.

                          3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 8-man squads

                            If you could do that on the fly, that would be ideal.

                            Since we're getting all utopian and stuff, I'd love to SL 8 man squads with minimap waypoint commands, using two colored waypoints for fireteams within the squad.

                            So: "Team A: rally here (plink), wait for B to attack, then hit from the flank." "Team B: charge here (dink), and attack from that rally point and draw the enemy's attention." Then everyone knows their job and the big picture/context of the objective.

                            Same thing on defenses with zones of responsibility. The big benefit of 8 person squads is that leaves you with 4 SL's per team, instead of 8. You have two SL's working together, then half the team can effectively work on a single objective in just a few words.

                            Lots of barriers to this idealized vision in the "full release" (sorry, Tempus) like no in-game VOIP, an unusable minimap, no ability to place markers on the unusable minimap, etc. But that TS plugin helps a lot in just getting squads talking to each other and working together.
                            Beatnik

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 8-man squads

                              In my experience, i've found 4 soldiers working together to achieve a large amount of accomplishment that a 6 man squad can do. So if there was actually a math to it, and 6 man squad could accomplish 100% of it's tasks - I always felt that even with a -50% decrease in manpower, I felt I only lost 20% efficiency which was really just two meat shields and "insurance" if two guys got KIA.

                              Originally posted by WhiskeySix View Post
                              In BF2, there were 6-man squads. I wonder how effective a BF3 team would be with 8-man squads?

                              A lot will depend on map dynamics (number of CP's, etc), but imagine there being three 8-man squads plus two 4-man flex squads (air/armor/intel?)

                              AB, CD, and EF squads would pair up and be responsible for the same objectives.

                              What if all 8 were in the same VOIP channel?

                              What if SL's were more like fireteam leaders?


                              Damn... I'm drooling to explore the tactical possibilities of this game!
                              [TP]Cavazos
                              www.tigersplatoon.com

                              Comment

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