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Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

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  • Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

    Any of you on reddit? You are welcome to disagree. But I see one of the major flaws in BF4 (even though it looks promising) is the spawn system. I still don't know why they are going for the "spawn on everybody", when you have commander-mode now.

    An up-vote and a comment would be nice, to get DICE's attention: http://www.reddit.com/r/battlefield_...ers_why_there/

    Like to quote a comment from there already. Nails it!

    "DICE has no idea what they want.

    They want a good game, but want to make it easy to play, they want less player learning curve, but give them more spawn points to confuse them. They want classes and class roles, but give them all the same guns and situational effectiveness. They want to make teams work together, but make soldiers better off alone (mini map sound spotting and 3D enemy indicators).

    They want people to play the game more, and buy more DLCs, but fragment the community with ****ty expansions that only cater to one group at a time. They want players to stick around and be loyal, but make the game a gimmick machine with 2 hours per level of actual fun before the game becomes overplayed.

    They want to be an industry leader, but they copy the actual leader every step of the way."
    "The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind"
    H.P. Lovecraft


  • #2
    Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

    It allows the SL to play full-throttle.

    A 6-man squad with SL-only-spawn yields 5 100% fighters (since SL has to play it safe).

    A 5-man squad with spawn-on-anyone can also give you 5 100% fighters (since SL doesn't necessarily have to play it safe).


    I don't see what the big deal is TBH; especially here at TG, where SL orders must be obeyed - you want your squad to spawn on you? just give the order :)

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    • #3
      Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

      Originally posted by WhiskeySix View Post
      II don't see what the big deal is TBH; especially here at TG, where SL orders must be obeyed - you want your squad to spawn on you? just give the order :)
      I think BF3 was a good example on how people did not obey SL orders and how hard it was to recruit people to a certain tactical gamemode, when you did not have good game mechanincs/meta-game etc. etc.

      Enabling SL-spawn only makes it alot easier to "force" public players to play like you want to.

      I agree though that with a strong server and an active community it's maybe not a problem maintaining a high level of teamplay, even with "spawn on everybody".

      But again, BF3 did not do well for either TG or the community I'm part off (Monkey-Gamers).
      "The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind"
      H.P. Lovecraft

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

        Originally posted by Reminshi View Post
        I think BF3 was a good example on how people did not obey SL orders and how hard it was to recruit people to a certain tactical gamemode, when you did not have good game mechanincs/meta-game etc. etc.

        Enabling SL-spawn only makes it alot easier to "force" public players to play like you want to.

        I agree though that with a strong server and an active community it's maybe not a problem maintaining a high level of teamplay, even with "spawn on everybody".

        But again, BF3 did not do well for either TG or the community I'm part off (Monkey-Gamers).
        Agreed, without native VOIP, there really wasn't any control... the SL couldn't actually lead.

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        • #5
          Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

          The way I see it the biggest difference that spawn on every one makes is that it allows the game to "progress" at a faster rate. When the squad makes a maneuver to break through a position or move across a dangerous area it gives a larger margin of error. Any single person that breaks through to a few moments of safety can mean a squad now flanking or a flag capped. With that system, a more intense and hectic game seem guarenteed.
          |TG-12th| Namebot

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          • #6
            Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

            But you lose the feeling of grabbing a point alone and hoping no one will get you. Knowing that you won't get any backup. That were some of the best moments in 2142.
            Proud to have been an Irregular!

            2142: Medic4Hire - BF4/Origin: MedicNL

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            • #7
              Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

              +1 for Namebot's point exactly... I don't want the chaos of the spawn-on-anyone-bomb. The SL(only!) spawn forced a lot of careful thinking on both offense and defense, and yeah, there was a lot of tension involved sometimes- and that tension was a blast!

              Of course, I never played a round of BF3, and I played about 3 rounds of BC2 before I gave it up. Sure, I might have given it a better chance, but I thought the game flow was just kind of nonsensical, and it sure wasn't for me.
              OPS, the bacon is on you.

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              • #8
                Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                I too prefer SL-only spawn - I love the added secondary objective of keeping the SL alive and well positioned.


                That being said, playing w/ this system in BF3 isn't bad. The SL can still play the spawn point - you just have a safety net now.

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                • #9
                  Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                  Well this is a goofy discussion because we don't know what Hardcore ruleset will be. In BF3 you have two options...everyone spawn in Normal mode or Squad Lead only spawn in Hardcore (though the Squad Lead can spawn on anyone). Are they not planning on keeping that separation?

                  The joy of the BF3 system is that you can still have a hard playing squad lead as long as someone stays alive. Plus, anyone on the team can bring in a spawn beacon. Honestly, SL as medic and a recon in the squad is always a good idea in the TG server. You can revive the SL with his own kit, but he has incentive to stay back and keep the squad alive and there is always a forward spawn (sometimes giving a tactical advantage) from the beacon.

                  Beacon play is one of the most tactical and rewarding things in BF3 since it is available to everyone (unlike the SL only beacons in 2142). You can make a difference for your squad even if your SL is a complete waste of space.

                  So I would say they got it right in BF3 (took us a couple of patches to get to this if I remember) and I don't think they should change it.

                  Of course the reddit posters are myopic PC elitists too. Guess what... not everyone plays on 64 man servers and not everyone has a reliable SL to choose from. If you are on a 24 person server on a last gen console (remember BF4 will be Xbox 360 and PS3 too) then you have 12 people per side. That gives you two squads of 5 and a 2 person squad. That is 3 possible SL's to "choose" from...assuming you can even get into the squads. So if you are stuck in a squad with a bush wookie camping recon... you may have 1 other choice at best and that choice could be the 2 person squad and you will be running a lot anyway.

                  SL spawn as a server option, either tied to hardcore or completely at the server's discretion is a good thing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                    Personally, I don't really care either way. While SL only spawns gives the SL an actual responsibility, if you have a bad SL you can still get the job done. In BF3 it does not matter either way because BF3 requires little to no skill. So a 2 man squad can easily take out 6 man if the 2 man squad are average skilled players and well coordinated.

                    On the TG server I usually always lead because I don't like relying on other people to get into the right positions(they usually dont). In the end if it stays like BF3 is, it does not matter at all. Because everyone can still spawn on everyone in the squad, just the SL has to spawn in first. So any half decent sl can just say "hold your spawn".

                    One thing I hope they fix is that in hardcore players just spray and pray all the time. If they can't kill you they'll use a 320 or rpg and they dont even have to hit you with it and you die(so much for hard cover). Same goes for the armor in hardcore. You dont have to shoot the player, you can shoot and miss horribly and still kill. It's like easy-mode. One solution for this is that they dramatically decrease the blast radius of the m320 and armor heat shells.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                      Originally posted by Kwalc View Post
                      One thing I hope they fix is that in hardcore players just spray and pray all the time. If they can't kill you they'll use a 320 or rpg and they dont even have to hit you with it and you die(so much for hard cover). Same goes for the armor in hardcore. You dont have to shoot the player, you can shoot and miss horribly and still kill. It's like easy-mode. One solution for this is that they dramatically decrease the blast radius of the m320 and armor heat shells.
                      Trouble is balancing explosives for hardcore. This is probably the subject of another thread, but basically if you reduce the blast radius any more then you have the issue of 320s and rpgs being worthless in normal.

                      A 320 only kills a person in one hit at a radius of .84 meters currently in normal (RPG splashes to .74 meters for OHK in normal). That is a pretty tiny area in game (a 320 three feet away won't kill you...basically an arm's length and you are still alive in normal mode.) If you shrink that then you may as well be playing with smoke because you get the one hit kill on direct hit with smoke and if you miss your target can't see you.

                      A hand grenade in normal is a OHK out to 2.08 meters radius.

                      A tank shell splashes for a OHK in normal out to 5 meters radius.



                      Check out these threads for my numbers
                      http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield...-general-data/
                      http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield...ata/#post23329

                      The more elegant solution is the one they eventually came to in MOH:W... a variable that only changes bullet damage when you play hardcore and leaves health amounts alone. That is really what people want for hardcore, so it is a good solution without touching explosives. When you only change the bullet damages, then you don't have to nerf the already pathetic radius for the m320 and RPG.

                      Plus, you might not die from taking a step off of a 5 foot ledge in hardcore anymore.
                      Last edited by Misnomer; 07-16-2013, 12:01 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                        Didn't play BF3, but here's my 2 cents anyways (and boy, is it worth exactly 2 cents!)

                        Strategy delves a lot into resource management. I'm not even sure how you can separate the two. Just based on that definition alone, making 'mobile spawns' a more valuable resource would also make Battlefield games a (somewhat) deeper strategy game. The question I think is, "How much strategy can you get by increasing the supply of people-you-can-spawn-on?" Any critical discussion I think would consider the following fundamentals in strategy:

                        1- Assymetric value of resources. That is, the following is pretty erroneous reasoning "we have two guns in this squad, and three guns in that squad, obviously the squad with three guns should win" Lots of points to be made with that (like skill), but let's just consider the class system. That is, infantry vs vehicle, engineer vs support... and in this case, squad-member vs squadleader. In which case, BF3 argues that there is no difference between members/leaders, and that each class should have roughly symmetric ability to take out infantry.

                        2- Critical mass. How many resources you need to get what you want. Sometimes, you wait take flags stealthily, effectively reducing the critical mass required to accomplish the goal.
                        3- Committing to plans. A plan becomes committed when it's too late to turn back.. the 'point of no return.' In his way, a bad plan will commit many resources.. where after committed, and will take a long time to succeed (many points of failure).

                        Spawn on squadleader is interesting because it causes plans to be committed. That is, once the squadleader is in danger (willingly or not), the potential losses become much higher. In short, 2142 was interesting in that the squadleader was assymetrically important because spawn-on-sl was an exclusive resource that exaggerated the commitments of players (that is... BF3 has unexaggerated strategy because 'mobile spawn points' aren't a protected resource)

                        You can examine very specific anecdotes about what Battlefield is, but I think they'll all stem down to those 3 small notes on strategery.

                        I think I'll go back and meld with the shadows. Ta!

                        Edit:
                        I would imagine 'progressing at a faster rate' changes not only pacing, but also the flow. The objective of 'defense' is to prevent progress. A big problem with some of the flawed 2142 maps was that our rock solid defenses.. well.. prevented progress indefinitely.. something readily solved with all-spawns.. but flawed map design shouldn't influence mechanics.
                        I guess what it more boils down to, is how creative it makes the game. If the resultant behavior of all-spawns was 'now we can die with little consequence' and 'let's solve this problem by bashing our heads in!!!!', well.. color that uninteresting!
                        Last edited by Fruvous; 07-16-2013, 08:34 PM.
                        Without teamwork, you'll never survive.
                        Without betrayal you'll never win.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                          Originally posted by Fruvous View Post
                          Spawn on squadleader is interesting because it causes plans to be committed. That is, once the squadleader is in danger (willingly or not), the potential losses become much higher. In short, 2142 was interesting in that the squadleader was assymetrically important because spawn-on-sl was an exclusive resource that exaggerated the commitments of players (that is... BF3 has unexaggerated strategy because 'mobile spawn points' aren't a protected resource)
                          Which is a misreading of 2142 because squad leaders had beacons in 2142 that they could put down and there were vehicles with drop pods (including a ground one in Northern Strike). So as a game it was designed with elements to remove keep the flow of infantry higher. There was a cost there in that you gave up other Squad Leader gadgets to have the spawn beacon, but the beacon was almost always worth it.

                          Any SL only spawn game has a meta-game problem.

                          In theory SL spawn sounds like a good way to keep cohesion, the reality is that the mechanic is most effective when the SL is acting like a beacon. As such, SL spawn results in either the SL hiding and acting as a beacon or the SL playing like normal and achieving relatively low cohesion because of how often he dies and the very long runs back to him for squad mates.

                          For all the concern about penalty for dying with everyone spawns, you ignore that there is a BF mechanic that far outweighs spawning in terms of cost of dying. Medic reviving. In BC2 it was so powerful that people often called a squad of 4 medics a cockroach squad because you could nuke the area of the map they were on and 4 guys would still end up crawling out, BF3 is not much better. As long as it is the case that an enemy squad can kill 3 of 4 guys (or 4 of 5 in BF4) and the last one left can pick up a kit and get all of his squad back on their feet in seconds, your respawn problems are insignificant in determining the cost of death. Respawns still take away tickets, defib spam erases deaths and even grants some immunity to fire (you are revived prone with a weapon out, spawn on a teammate and you come in standing and in the same line of fire as the person you spawned on).

                          Like I said, I prefer spawn on SL and beacons when there is teamwork going, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it is a crucially important difference in the way people play the game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                            It's definitely not something that is required. As I said before, the nice things about SL-spawn is:
                            1) Spawns are in limited supply. Dropping a beacon does not increase the supply of spawns. The NS Goliath as a spawn wasn't really explored well enough to examine, but it didn't really increase the supply of spawns by very much. In other battlefield games, being able to spawn on anyone increases the supply a lot. It might be by an unreasonable amount, or by a reasonable amount - something I don't have the expertise to comment on, except describe what I expect.
                            2) It makes cohesion more difficult, but it doesn't devalue it. Once again, spawns are limited in supply. If the squads overextend themselves to leave squadleaders unprotected, then it's the tactical fault of the squad and the squadleader.
                            3) The topic being discussed isn't the interaction between medics and tickets. It's about the supply of spawnpoints. The question isn't, "how do we prevent people from dying?" It's "How do we handle it when people inevitably die?"
                            Increasing the supply of spawns makes it much easier to mobilize. Is easier good? Maybe, maybe not. I just describe that mobilization is an interesting aspect of strategy. As a game element, all-spawns reduces the time it takes to get back into the action, reducing the times of 'god, it's so boring to walk from A to B.' But that's what creates good strategy - how to make soldiers be caught doing useless things (like walking to defend a flag that's about to be capped.. which you might arrive too late.) It's similar to your argument that revives are powerful. Heh, as a shotgunner, I really didn't have any fear charging headfirst into a flag, because I knew that I'd be revived 3 seconds later.

                            In the end, teamwork environments have a few must-haves, which I agree, SL spawns isn't a must-have. However, if you examine any strategy game critically, you'll find that strategy is an emergent property from assymetrically valued units. Two models include better units have a higher cost, and different units fulfill different roles. Squadleaders as spawns are a way that includes both.
                            Without teamwork, you'll never survive.
                            Without betrayal you'll never win.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Squadleader only spawn! Need some support!

                              Originally posted by Fruvous View Post
                              It's "How do we handle it when people inevitably die?"
                              Increasing the supply of spawns makes it much easier to mobilize. Is easier good? Maybe, maybe not. I just describe that mobilization is an interesting aspect of strategy. As a game element, all-spawns reduces the time it takes to get back into the action, reducing the times of 'god, it's so boring to walk from A to B.' But that's what creates good strategy - how to make soldiers be .
                              But my problem isn't the boredom, it is the lack of unit cohesion that comes from that walk. So you die, your squadleader dies, but 2 players on your squad do not. In BF3 you get the option as SL to spawn on anyone, so if that carries through you avoid that one problem because you wait for you SL to spawn on the other two before you spawn. There are still more occasions where you end up walking across a huge map to get back to your squad if your SL is not hiding (quite often when you click to spawn on your squad lead he will die during the spawning and you get placed all the way back at the uncap). During those moments you are no use to anyone. You could be of use to your team taking closer flags to where you spawned, but because you want to work with your squad you are bypassing them and trying not to die on your way back.

                              In BF3 hardcore you can also have 39 spawnpoints per team on some maps, 32 per team if there are no flags... 4-11 available for a squad to choose from because anyone can bring in a beacon. So you would have to make the beacon a squad lead only thing again if you are worried about the proliferation of spawn points. Still, 32 recons never happens so it is not that much of a concern.

                              Mobilization is an interesting element, but it very rarely happens in the field in groups (and if it does it is called Squad Leader bombing). What you are managing here is really how a trickle of players comes back. To clear an area you really must clear an area and that realistically doesn't change unless you take away the SL spawn on anyone mechanics. Only then do you get to effectively clear an area by eliminating the SL.

                              Anyone who has ever played a tower defense or zombie game knows, you will win all day if they just come in one by one... and that is what a proliferation of spawnpoints will inevitably result in: One by one attrition as each player comes back near the fight. Teams that tactically use spawn bombs and beacons are the only ones that will be making a strategic difference with spawnpoints. Otherwise it is just contributing to the attrition one way or the other.

                              I think it boils down to this. You see limited spawns as a way to force people into thinking strategically. I see limited spawns as almost always resulting in a more drawn out attrition period of the game with the strategic movements still only being accomplished by a few who will do them either way.

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