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  • Squad kit balance - your opinions?

    What have your experiences been so far with squad kit balance? Is it heavily skewed toward any particular kit?

    Opinions, war stories - go!

    I have to open with the most obvious: it seems that the majority of squads are now running mostly engineer kits. Anyone else experience that or am I out in the left field there?

  • #2
    Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

    I think any discussion of squad balance up to this point will be fundamentally flawed if applied to the full game. The lack of 3/4ths of the gadgets per kit in beta is simply too great a difference from beta to release for any speculation to be accurate.

    This being said, as far as the beta is concerned and from my experience, I think that every squad needs to have at least two anti-tank options available. (40/30/25mm grenades don't count) That means most squads I have been in have rocked either two engineers or an engineer and a recon. I think that this is one area that will change drastically in the finished product, considering that the engineer will have the SRAW, Javelin, and NLAW available as well as interactions with the recon PLD in some cases, and the support will have C4. I further think that this will be map dependent. Tanks are a major force on Shanghai, but from the Gamescom footage of Paracel Storm tanks seem less potent, perhaps even non-existent, shifting the focus towards anti-infantry and anti-air to a lesser extent.

    I think my early prediction for the beta wasn't far off the mark. 3x Assault, 1x Support, and 1x Recon is a very solid go-to squad loadout. Typically, and I think this is a function of Shanghai as a map, the support is dropped in favor of an engineer. The engineer and recon provide two sources of AT, and if the recon drops motion balls for a PLD they can team up to swat helicopters. Three assaults with defibs means there's almost always someone in rezzing distance if someone goes down. (whether going for the revive is a good idea is another matter) The squad can beat up on infantry at close and medium range alike, and the recon can come in with a bolt action when needed to pop bad rooftop campers.

    I think that most squads only shift engineer heavy in fringe scenarios, such as when holding A, B, D, or E and get pressured hard by the enemies entire armor pool. That being said, it is not uncommon to see squads rocking double engineers with carbines plus three other kits. Double engineer is certainly effective, and on flags with little or no cover such as Echo, necessary.

    "Over the din of battle could be heard Lancerís maniacal laughter and it spurned us on to stay the course, not to give up, and enjoy." - Grimmfist

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    • #3
      Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

      I posted it earlier, but I think one of each class with an extra assault grenadier (who can switch to engineer as necessary) would be my ideal balance. A recon + engineer always together means you can kill the helis that can come harass you at any given point. They provide you with more flexibility against ground armor threats. You have great spotting and long-range capabilities. You have one-two defibs and one-two medkits available (preference), and a good mix of long and shortrage combat, assuming your whole squad isn't just taking carbines. The Type88 and airburst are both excellent at medium-long range, and while I personally think recons should carry carbines since DMRs are anemic right now, you have a DMR option. The SCAR and MASS is a great weapon platform, and the AK12's burst mode is very viable at range and is also good at close quarters. If your support has the ammo box unlocked, you have unlimited grenades, RPGs, XM25, and M320 rounds, which means you're basically going to roll over any number of snipers (XM25 supremacy) and have staying power against everything else.

      (Also, apparently, DICE is aware that the revive window is very, very short and will be increasing it. )
      I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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      • #4
        Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

        Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
        (...) mix of long and shortrage combat(..) )
        Love the Freudian slip ;) Anyway, the classes seem very balanced and I think you can get have lots of different combinations even if revive will still be very important.
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        • #5
          Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

          Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
          I have to open with the most obvious: it seems that the majority of squads are now running mostly engineer kits. Anyone else experience that or am I out in the left field there?
          I beleive that has to do with the PP2000 gun that the engineer unlocks first. It has alot of ammo and more stable so you get a feeling if you just want to gun and run, that would be the preferable kit.

          With all these servers running vanilla settings and health being refreshed after a hit I think the medic is redundant. If a squadmate is killed in battle the revive time is too short in most cases. You have to be pretty quick with the de-fibs.

          I think the squad leader should have the recon kit with googles, two or three engees and one support that has the full box unlock.

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          • #6
            Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

            We were doing all right picking up revives yesterday afternoon, though it definitely would be easier if the revive timer wasn't so short. Personally, I can't do crap with the basic engi gun and prefer the one the assault kit gets off the bat for straight-up killin' folk. Regardless of health regen settings, I do feel the assault kit can contribute to the fight. If you're stuck defending a flag it's good to have a medkit or two to sit on so that you have an edge over any attackers you might encounter, and even with the short revive timer you can still get a few revives here and there. Every ticket counts! Also, survivability plays into this game a bit more than some previous titles given the field upgrades, and the assault kit's purpose is to increase the survivability of the squad.

            Just my $.02 given the few rounds I've been able to play.

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            • #7
              Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

              I find engi and support to be the most effective kits with current server settings I have played on.
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              • #8
                Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                Agreed Arithea, I think the Assault is easily the most effective anti-infantry kit, the workhorse of objective clearing and seizing.

                Bearing in mind we only have access to two of the assault rifles, the AK12 and Scar H, both of which are excellent in their own rights. I have seen videos where people are saying that the AK12 IS easy to use and almost OP but it has a very slow ROF (below 700 rpm). Coupled with the minimal and predictable recoil you have a headshot machine. It is far easier to use and more effective than the AK74 of BF3. The Scar H, which I prefer the look of lol, is very powerful but kicks a bit, smaller mag etc.

                Now, when we look at the weapons to come, M416 and AEK etc we know that both those weapons are pretty accurate and have a near 200 rpm advantage. It is also reasonable to assume that DICE will treat the M416 to some sort of elevated status now as they buffed it a fair bit towards the end of BF3 after people questioned why a weapon arguably renowned for being more accurate and better made than the standard AR15 platform was being outperformed by the god gun M16A3. The AEK in it's previous iteration was a CQB beast with it's 950+ RPM, the only downsides a strong right hand high pull and the fact you had to keep feeding the damn thing lol. Then we have all the other really good assault rifles.

                No I think when we reach release with the potential extension of the revive timer and full range of both assault rifles and gadgets available to the Assault class we will see the Assault rightly assume its position as the Queen of infantry battle. The rest of the classes have their fields, the cross class weapon platforms blur the limits of those fields nicely, but an Assault with defibs and an accurate 30 round AR will still have their place.


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                • #9
                  Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                  I would assume the TG server is going to have the SL spawn only option on? Revives will actually mean something then. On this beta, I have only equipped the GL.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                    Originally posted by MDawg77 View Post
                    I would assume the TG server is going to have the SL spawn only option on? Revives will actually mean something then. On this beta, I have only equipped the GL.
                    Yeah, if past Battlefield titles are any indication we will most likely be running spawn on SL only.

                    "Over the din of battle could be heard Lancerís maniacal laughter and it spurned us on to stay the course, not to give up, and enjoy." - Grimmfist

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                    • #11
                      Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                      Revives are limited in their usefulness in the beta due to the limited timer, which if rumour is to believed will be extended. TG will run custom settings and we're waiting on further information. SL only has it's good and bad points. We will most likely try a few configurations and see how it plays out.


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                      • #12
                        Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                        I don't use twitter so I can't/don't know how to find it but I saw a tweet from one of the devs that stated the reviev window was smaller in beta than it will be when the game is released.
                        Nubhar

                        - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                          Medic revive can work either way -- save the squad or lead to wipe due to careless revives in a kill zone.

                          As to which kit balance, much (everything?) depends on the objective of the squad and its specialization.

                          If a squad is fully cohesive then the interrelationships between kits create a distinct weapon.
                          Last edited by E-Male; 10-15-2013, 03:24 PM.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                            Personally, I really like how nerfed the medic's powers are in BF4.
                            * The medic train in BC2 showed just how game breaking the revive can be.
                            * BF2142 generally had squads with 5 assault medics. With PK rockets and revive paddles, the medic reigned supreme.
                            * Even in BF3, on tight maps like Metro, running around with paddles out was a winning tactic. IMO, that kind of gameplay belongs in TF and not in BF.

                            The fact that the friendlies only come back to 20% health in BF4 makes a huge difference. The revive timer in BF4 may be a few seconds too short, but it is the best medic mechanic in any stock BF game so far. Giving airburst to support is just the cherry on top.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Squad kit balance - your opinions?

                              Well said, Bleedingknee. It is indeed nice to see the BF franchise evolve and address these issues.

                              Also, I think we will see a lot of rounds lost due to too many snipers et al hanging out on roof tops. By the same token, the use of roof tops, often inaccessible without helos, may render the defense of flags all that more critical.

                              Always nice to meet a new game and see what its personality is and how it develops.
                              sigpic

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