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  • A Request to COs

    Looking forward to working with our Commanders.

    Just a simple plea.

    Commanders, please think twice before asking a squad to hop across a map, past two or even just one friendly flag. It is often unrealistic to expect 5 men to fight their way through territory densely populated with enemies and then hold a flag (if won) when surrounded by enemy flags.

    Keep reasonable expectations and use tactics grounded in consideration of enemy force ratios.

    I understand that a CO may be sending multiple squads at once to a distant objective and other such legitimate maneuvers.

    On a related note, I have yet to hear the voice of a CO.

    I think we may need to supplement VOIP with some form of TS support for SL-CO comms.

    I need to be able to speak to my commander directly when squad leading. Perhaps Whisper is the solution.
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: A Request to COs

    I think the CO situation is going to be problematic. The VoIP options for it appear to be very limited, which means almost useless.

    I'd be surprised if we end up with COs in there regularly.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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    • #3
      Re: A Request to COs

      One particular group I was in early yesterday evening stood out. The CO had great communication going with our SL via VOIP. The CO not only issued orders through the game, but also on voice. The CO also checked in from time to time for a sit-rep.

      The only real hitch in the system I can see is to figure out a standard way for a SL to get the CO's attention so the CO can hop on the SL's squad VOIP for voice comms.

      As far as CO advice, I'd suggest trying to rotate a squad's objective if possible. Be it map to map, or even during a long game, don't make Alpha Squad play defense all night, and don't send Bravo after flags all night. Change it up. Of course, if a particular squad specializes in something or requests defense, then that should also be taken into consideration.

      Me thinks losing a fun game is way better than winning a boring game any day of the week.
      SPOOK...
      "Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics will destroy even the best strategy." - George S. Patton

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      • #4
        Re: A Request to COs

        Originally posted by Tempus View Post
        I think the CO situation is going to be problematic. The VoIP options for it appear to be very limited, which means almost useless.

        I'd be surprised if we end up with COs in there regularly.
        Their voip implementation for COs is very frustrating, I agree. I think if you wanted to ping a CO's attention, using the comrose to "request orders" should work. The other option, naturally, is just to put all the TG SLs and CO into one TS channel, which is an irritating workaround.
        I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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        • #5
          Re: A Request to COs

          Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
          . . . The other option, naturally, is just to put all the TG SLs and CO into one TS channel, which is an irritating workaround.
          This, unfortunately, will not work as an SOP if VOIP is also unreliable at the squad level.

          SLs need to be in near-constant communication with their squad mates (and vise versa), so isolating SLs in a command TS channel is a non-starter.

          If VOIP is reliable then SLs will benefit greatly from being in the same TS channel as the CO, so long as comm discipline is strictly enforced in the TS command channel.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Re: A Request to COs

            We have something in the works as mentioned and I'll briefly outline it here.

            Providing in game intra squad voip settles down performance wise then the plan is to have SL's and CO in a command channel on TS and the squad members can sit in the main channel. Intra squad comms is handled by in game voip and inter squad and CO to SL is handled by the Command channel. Command channel will be strictly SL and CO only, no exceptions.

            Ultimately the goal is to facilitate teamwork and inter squad coordination and the support the Chain of Command, as opposed to backstopping the individual squad's comms with TS on top of Voip. Now it's not a perfect system as we may have non-TG registered SL's who aren't in the SL channel. This is a key area where, once this is up and running, we all need to push people to our site, forums and TS. Despite this 'weakness' in similar situations in other title's this has on balance proven to be the best solution when done properly.


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            • #7
              Re: A Request to COs

              Originally posted by E-Male View Post
              This, unfortunately, will not work as an SOP if VOIP is also unreliable at the squad level.

              SLs need to be in near-constant communication with their squad mates (and vise versa), so isolating SLs in a command TS channel is a non-starter.

              If VOIP is reliable then SLs will benefit greatly from being in the same TS channel as the CO, so long as comm discipline is strictly enforced in the TS command channel.
              True, though I, personally, have not had any issues with the ingame VOIP. I understand some have, but the few rounds I've SL'd on TG I've talked pretty regularly and gotten responses from it without any interference or breakup. I suspect any problems will resolve themselves somewhat shortly.

              If not, it becomes part of the CO's job to regularly check in on SLs, ask for updates, and to respond quickly to "request orders" comm pings.
              I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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              • #8
                Re: A Request to COs

                We actually had some success communicating with Warlab as CO last night during a round, but the way the CO to squad to CO comms work is a bit odd, overall. I personally would prefer if only the SL got CO comms, as it muddies up the in-squad comms when you add another person with another purpose to the mix. However, it's good in that the rest of the squad can also hear the orders given and the reasons behind them.

                I would also prefer to be in either the main TS channel or the channel of my choice when SLing as opposed to a separate channel for just the leadership, but in the end we have to do what works. Have we considered having team channels at some point?
                Last edited by Arithea; 11-01-2013, 09:52 AM. Reason: Disambiguation

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                • #9
                  Re: A Request to COs

                  Hopefully in game voip stabilizes. Had the CO talking to me quite a bit, didn't realize it at first (think it was warlab). Have no idea how to talk back to the CO yet, still gotta iron out kinks in my gamepad bindings. He did awesome, except that I had a lot of garbled voice stuff going on too, but what I was able to get was very helpful and he kept us busy in a good way :) . Another round had a CO that was assigning locations that made no sense, in the middle of nowhere, across the map. I chalked that up as the CO learning the ropes.

                  Something I want to stress to everyone, I really rarely have issues with someone's CO abilities. The biggest thing is the intel they provide. If you feel you did a real crappy job, get over it. I don't think many people will even notice it enough to remember for more than the time it takes to start the next round. The only way you get better is by doing it. I personally remember a CO with good comms and direction far better than a poor CO.

                  EDIT: I think Arithea confirmed my recollection of it being Warlab in the prior post :)
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: A Request to COs

                    Emale I want to suggest you try running the battlemap on a second monitor. The squad is outlined in the lower left and I believe also the name of the commander.

                    Last night I played at least 2 or 3 rounds with an excellent CO presence. If I'm understanding it correctly the CO talks to the whole squad and also hears the whole squad when he or she has selected the squad in question.

                    You are right, i think...there is no way for the SL to talk to the CO if the CO has another squad selected. an efficient CO should be checking in on a regular basis however and also paying attention to order requests from the squads themselves. I think with practice (and a patch addressing the spotty audio issues) the system is workable without requiring TS.
                    sigpic
                    |TG-1st|Grunt
                    ARMA Admin (retired)
                    Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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                    • #11
                      Re: A Request to COs

                      I agree with Razcsak that any VOIP issues will likely resolve shortly, and with Grunt that with practice we will be able to rely on the communications systems the game provides to do what we need, rather than using TS as a crutch. I believe that if TS use becomes engendered now(especially team-wide), it will be a difficult habit to break down the road. VOIP is the way forward.

                      And to anyone stepping up to CO, good on you. Feel free to check up on your squads as often as you can!
                      Un Equipo de Trabajo Para Bien de Todos

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                      • #12
                        Re: A Request to COs

                        Yeah the SL Channel thing isn't mandated yet nor even fully fleshed out, its just something we are potentially looking at to increase SL/Command Comms and coordination and have teamplay as opposed to squadplay. Still working on the concept at present.


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                        • #13
                          Re: A Request to COs

                          I always use the second monitor for the Battlemap -- it is quite awesome as a situation awareness tool.

                          Wicks' note on the planned implementation of a CO/SL TS command channel sounds great.

                          Just one caution. In the past such systems have been compromised by chatty COs and equally chatty SLs. I require strict discipline in this type of shared channel and will ruthlessly police comm discipline in shared command channels. I have found that some or perhaps many (by no means all) commanders simply talk far too much in a shared CO channel.

                          I realize that I demand a higher level of comm discipline than what might be considered normative (and I say this based upon extensive experience in this matter) -- this is not to say that I am 'better' in this regard, indeed, it is perhaps a weakness on my part that makes me less flexible in this circumstance. I have experienced numerous instances of shared command channels in the past (across various game titles) and have found that they generally add unnecessary levels of noise and in the end prove to be nonviable for me (not necessarily for others, as I have noted over the years that other leaders have a higher tolerance of noise in channel than I, which all well and fine, but not my cup of tea).

                          In other words, the problem with shared command channels is that we do not have a shared understanding of what constitutes concise comms or acceptable levels of comm traffic.

                          All this to say that I am 100% behind Wicks proposal for a shared command TS channel, but I will ask for comm discipline if noise is a problem and I will leave the channel if it interferes with my ability to communicate with my squad.

                          But I am willing to play ball and give the system time to work.
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Re: A Request to COs

                            Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                            Just one caution. In the past such systems have been compromised by chatty COs and equally chatty SLs. I require strict discipline in this type of shared channel and will ruthlessly police comm discipline in shared command channels. I have found that some or perhaps many (by no means all) commanders simply talk far too much in a shared CO channel.
                            Wow. I completely agree with the entire post - not just the quoted part.
                            I play PS2 with the Devil Dogs. When I run squads, I have 3 levels of comms:
                            Clear Comms (Silence. Command is contacting me)
                            Battle Comms (Combat-relevant comms only. This is the default level)
                            Bull**** Comms (Talk away. We're not in direct combat. This would rarely happen in BF4, but happens in PS2)

                            In other news:
                            I remember back in the day on TG servers, there were scripts in place such that - when you joined a squad in game, you got auto-switched to the correct channel on TS.
                            That was pretty awesome. If we have to go to TS comms (I don't know how much more of the crappy VOIP I can take), hopefully we can get that back.
                            BF4: Indiscrimin8

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                            • #15
                              Re: A Request to COs

                              Allow me to rephrase my earlier statement.

                              What I find is that TS channels with multiple command elements in them tend towards too much noise for my own tastes.

                              The more people, the more noise.

                              I make no claim to represent an acceptable level of comm use or that what I like is or should be normative. I'm just saying I find these channels get noisy sometimes.

                              I'll speak up when they do (not ruthlessly, respectfully).

                              Wicks proposal can work if we make an effort to make it work.
                              sigpic

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