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  • Team Stacking / Scramble

    Hey, sorry if this has been asked already. I searched, but didn't find anything!

    Is the lack of a team scrambler an intentional design choice, or is it because there isn't a suitable scrambler available yet for BF4? I found an old BF3 thread that talks about the BF3 scrambler, which would shuffle teams while keeping squads intact (which is how I remember it). I've already seen some other servers using a person-by-person scrambler, but I haven't seen any that move entire squads at a time.

    Is it safe to assume that we're just waiting for a scrambler that will do the same thing for BF4? Team stacking has been a serious issue on this server for the past couple of weeks, and it's not really fun for either side.

  • #2
    Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

    the thing I notice is that there are times when there are a number of TG'ers on both sides and the squads still don't work well with each other or notice that they need to operate as a squad. When times arise when player count is lower than it should be on the other team, it is our responsibility, no it is everyone's responsibility to try to equal things out.

    Fex, as for my observations, team stacking can happen, but I think a part of it also is based on how well certain groups mesh and the newness of the game. Many people are still new players and are not completely there yet...



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    • #3
      Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

      I completely agree that there's more to it than just the number of players on each side. 32 good players working as a team will beat 32 bad players every time, by an unenjoyable margin. That's why an actual shuffler/scrambler is needed, not just a basic team size balancer.

      It would be really great if the community would manually solve balance problems by switching to the other team when they notice that their team is constantly winning, but that just doesn't seem to happen. To make things even more complicated, I don't think the game will allow you to switch sides if the opposing team is already full, which means if a team is really bad, but they're sitting at 32/32 members (like tonight), there's no way for good players to switch teams and try to help them.

      An automated shuffler takes care of the dirty work. A few of my other favorite servers are using ones that shuffle one person at a time, but I still haven't seen any that try to keep squads together. I admit, it would be frustrating to be yanked from a squad to resolve a balance problem, but personally, I think that the current balance problem is even more frustrating.

      Either way, I hope that a squad-maintaining scrambler becomes available soon - assuming that's what we're waiting for.

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      • #4
        Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

        That didn't take long :)
        "Everyone makes fun of us rednecks with our big trucks and all our guns........until the zombie apocalypse"

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        • #5
          Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

          Personal Opinion, not necessarily reflecting that of the Game Officer:

          I think that implementing a technical solution to the apparent lack of teamwork is not the right solution. If one team is showing teamwork and the other team isn't, the solution isn't spreading the teamwork-oriented people evenly. The solution is to work with the community in the game and outside of the game to raise the teamwork level across the board so that there isn't a need for a 'scrambler' of sorts.

          Sure, it's not a quick fix, but it resolves the actual problem rather than band-aiding it. It will take some time and patience from the player base to get there. Yes, patience. Oh, and effort. That too.
          Last edited by Damonte; 11-20-2013, 10:31 AM.

          "Everytime I read your posts I do it with Morgan Freeman's voice in my head as if he is narrating your life" - Aimed

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          • #6
            Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

            [MENTION=75638]fex[/MENTION], did you notice anyone on your team trying to step up and help with coordination? Better yet, did you yourself try to engage your squad and your team to get them on board with better teamwork? What avenues did you see available to you to help with that?

            I ask not to place blame or put you on the spot, but so that we can hopefully identify any weak points in our coordination tools (spotty VoIP being a huge one) and try to mitigate that as a community.

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            • #7
              Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

              With Zorasters post on bleed you can see that it's very easy to have 400-0 games without too much imbalance. Also the "stacks" usually just come after one team loses lots of TG members after a round while the other doesn't.

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              • #8
                Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                The biggest difference between teams is the number of 2-man and 3-man squads each has... because 90% of the time those players are NOT playing the same objective together.

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                • #9
                  Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                  Originally posted by WhiskeySix View Post
                  The biggest difference between teams is the number of 2-man and 3-man squads each has... because 90% of the time those players are NOT playing the same objective together.
                  Of course, there are many sources of team imbalance but WhiskeySix notes a significant one here, and one that can be empirically validated.

                  There is no way to see the team configuration of the other side (correct?), but we can record our own team's squad makeup.

                  I'll try to make a habit of hitting my FRAP's screen shot button at the end of each round and post this with a screen shot of the squad composition. This is somewhat limited as squad composition is dynamic, but a few screen captures should reveal much.

                  Claims of imbalance tend to be impressionistic and lacking in any data. We know that imbalance happens, but we do not have a clear picture of under what conditions. Lets make an effort to gather data, post, and think clearly about this.
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                    Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                    There is no way to see the team configuration of the other side (correct?), but we can record our own team's squad makeup.
                    I'm not sure about during the round, but there's a 'Squad' tab in the Battle Reports, where you can see who was in what squad. However, the Battle Report also keeps track of those who disconnected, so you'll see squads with more than 5 players if players joined the squad, disconnected, and never rejoined.


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                    • #11
                      Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                      We could also simply encourage folks to consolidate squads when we see a bunch of two- and three-man squads on a team and let anecdotal evidence suggest whether or not that's effective. Overanalysis of the problem at hand could cause just as many problems as it solves.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                        I still think there's room for specialty squads (e.g. armor squad). Some armor (and on some maps it might be different) mixes better with infantry than others. I don't really think a tank on dawnbreaker, for example, is particularly effective mixed in with a full squad. But a tank on Golmud mixed in with an infantry squad on Foxtrot or something seems to make a lot of sense.

                        All that said, the lack of naming for squads limits the effectiveness of specialty squads.
                        .

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                        • #13
                          Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                          I remember during the 2142 games some of the more stronger players would switch sides at the start of the game to balance out teams. We just haven't gotten to that point yet.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                            Originally posted by OldGunney View Post
                            I remember during the 2142 games some of the more stronger players would switch sides at the start of the game to balance out teams. We just haven't gotten to that point yet.
                            This is complicated by full teams -- very hard to individually switch, impossible for a whole squad to switch. Once again, game designers appear to be ignorant of some very basic (and old) issues that arise in teamplay environments.

                            I am no coder, but why not a simply system of volunteer exchange? Place ones name or entire squad in a "seeking to switch teams' box. Click on the player and both are simultaneously switched.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Re: Team Stacking / Scramble

                              Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                              I am no coder, but why not a simply system of volunteer exchange? Place ones name or entire squad in a "seeking to switch teams' box. Click on the player and both are simultaneously switched.
                              Because the majority of the demographic playing the game frankly doesn't care about having this feature, and if it even makes the to-do list it gets deprioritized to the point where it's never done. Sadly, most of the people who play shooters just want to run around and frag people with their friends. We are the exception, not the rule.

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