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  • The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

    Directly from the primer:

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.
    Squad leaders standing outside objectives and acting as mobile spawn beacons is a flagrant violation of our primer. There is NO real world tactic hinged around a man hiding behind a rock and endlessly spawning a stream of troops into a combat zone. This is a prime example of leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine. It's 100% gamey and anti-tactical.

    It has recently been brought to my attention with the loss of the mini-map. This makes hiding and ninja tactics VERY powerful and the hiding SL spawn beacon is the epitomizes the exploitation of this.

    Frankly, it needs to go. If we can't kill it with settings we need to make a rule against it.

    On the upside. Spawning only on bases would make the game more immersive. It would add value to a single soldiers life. It would slow down the pace of the game and promote real world tactics. It would also introduce strategic logistical decisions that talented commanders could leverage for the teams benefit and advantage.

    At the very least we need to try it out.
    Shhhh I'm being made




  • #2
    Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

    Is this a serious suggestion or just a contrarian argument to try and show the logical extreme?
    .

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    • #3
      Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

      You know that's an interesting thought. People only being able to spawn on an actual spawn beacon, or a captured flag/base. Makes you rethink what you're doing with your squad a whole lot.
      TG-3rd Special Forces is Active and Currenly Recruiting!





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      • #4
        Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

        There seems to be several things along these same lines. Is anyone here talking about or doing anything about Engineers repping scout choppers in mid flight ? This is a ridiculous tactic provided by the game engine as well..

        edit:realized this might be considered hijacking but I figured it was a relative topic
        Dizlor


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        • #5
          Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

          Originally posted by Zoraster View Post
          Is this a serious suggestion or just a contrarian argument to try and show the logical extreme?
          It's a serious suggestion.

          My butting heads with people considered to be in the more "hardcore" crowd recently is grounded in a disagreement of how certain information affects tactical and strategic decision making. It boils down to them valuing personal experience realism more than I am.

          I truly believe that the SL spawn beacon promotes lazy, unrealistic tactics. It is unrealistic on a personal experience level AND on a tactical level. Hence my gripe.

          On a personal note. I think it'd be more fun to play on a sever that didn't have this.
          Shhhh I'm being made



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          • #6
            Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

            Originally posted by Gogeta View Post
            There seems to be several things along these same lines. Is anyone here talking about or doing anything about Engineers repping scout choppers in mid flight ? This is a ridiculous tactic provided by the game engine as well..

            edit:realized this might be considered hijacking but I figured it was a relative topic
            Lets please keep the thread on topic.
            Shhhh I'm being made



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            • #7
              Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

              Should I start an entire new thread ranting about the same thing you are ? I guess my question in my post was pretty much rhetorical.. as I already know the answer. I wasn't looking for an answer. I was sorta trying to point out that there are several things being utilized/taken advantage of on TG's server, as well as every other one out there.

              But, on a second note, you might want to speak with the GO or Admins about this. Starting a rant thread demanding change and quoting the Primer isn't exactly the best way to get things accomplished, at least not back in my day.
              Dizlor


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              • #8
                Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                Originally posted by Crux View Post
                You know that's an interesting thought. People only being able to spawn on an actual spawn beacon, or a captured flag/base. Makes you rethink what you're doing with your squad a whole lot.
                I think it would also add some tactical depth.

                When engagements turn into "which squad can keep the SL up the longest" it turns the squad members in to sacrificial pawns with the goal of taking our the enemy SL and just using respawns the zerg the remaining troops.

                I'm not saying that tactics don't HELP, but this is what the squad leader spawn point promotes.

                There are numerous times I've been in a squad and put into a bad situation. The most common sentiment from my SL? "Just keep me up." Which means..."die so I can stay alive and your death doesn't matter." I think game play would be enriched without this.
                Shhhh I'm being made



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                • #9
                  Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                  There is of course the assumption that everyone applies this strategy to squad leading.

                  'Reinforcement' in games is a tricky thing to balance and to some extent get your head around. Having played many years of PR:BF2 which had quite complex (in comparison) spawn mechanics and having participated in testing of various iterations of the game, I am fairly familiar with a lot of the options. At various times in PR we had spawn on SL, spawn on Rally Point (which looked like a pile of rucksacks), spawn on held flags and spawn on firebases, which required logistical support to build (ie crates had to be delivered and only an SL could build them, plus there were distance restrictions, how many in a given area, proximity to flag etc. We had all those options at one time or another and usually combinations of.

                  PR was a much slower game in general terms, or more correctly the pace of it was more subject to fluctuation. I have no desire to try and turn BF4 into that, nor would many people want it. There is nothing wrong with the many options BF4 provides us and we can do enough with those options to create something suitable for TG.

                  I sometimes feel people are looking at each and every setting in a very simplistic, almost binary way. On or Off, good or bad, realistic or gamey. In reality the settings and the complex combinations thereof are more like sliders. They have their plusses and minuses, it's simply a matter of weighing those outcomes up and determining on balance what benefits gameplay the most.

                  Spawn on capped flags would most likely result in teams being pushed very quickly back to their main and then being hemmed in. The attacking side would hold multiple reinforcement points as opposed to the other teams one. With the aggressive bleed and the need for a risky break out against a team that can reinforce in depth, games would get horrendously imbalanced quickly. It would encourage flag rushing further to secure as many spawn points as possible quickly. Time spent maneuvering off flag would potentially be regarded by many as time wasted. Intelligent, tactical play would wither as both teams endlessly piled into the middle to clash mindlessly on flags.

                  The above is hypothetical, as is the suggestion, however I have seen enough over the years to know that every change, every setting has both positive and negative outcomes, often magnified by unintended affects on player behaviour. This is why determining the optimum settings for our server, keeping our gameplay goal in mind, is extremely tricky and not a simple matter at all and why we don't apply top of the head, back of a cigarette packet ideas without a great deal of thought.

                  Nevertheless an interesting suggestion, though to be honest, in view of your position on other settings it does have the whiff of being contrary for the sake of it about it lol.
                  Last edited by Wicks; 11-23-2013, 07:10 PM. Reason: Typos as usual


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                  • #10
                    Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                    Originally posted by Wicks View Post
                    There is of course the assumption that everyone applies this strategy to squad leading.

                    'Reinforcement' in games is a tricky thing to balance and to some extent get your head around. Having played many years of PR:BF2 which had quite complex (in comparison) spawn mechanics and having participated in testing of various iterations of the game, I am fairly familiar with a lot of the options. At various times in PR we had spawn on SL, spawn on Rally Point (which looked like a pile of rucksacks), spawn on held flags and spawn on firebases, which required logistical support to build (ie crates had to be delivered and only an SL could build them, plus there were distance restrictions, how many in a given area, proximity to flag etc. We had all those options at one time or another and usually combinations of.

                    PR was a much slower game in general terms, or more correctly the pace of it was more subject to fluctuation. I have no desire to try and turn BF4 into that, nor would many people want it. There is nothing wrong with the many options BF4 provides us and we can do enough with those options to create something suitable for TG.

                    I sometimes feel people are looking at each and every setting in a very simplistic, almost binary way. On or Off, good or bad, realistic or gamey. In reality the settings and the complex combinations thereof are more like sliders. They have their plusses and minuses, it's simply a matter of weighing those outcomes up and determining on balance what benefits gameplay the most.

                    Spawn on capped flags would most likely result in teams being pushed very quickly back to their main and then being hemmed in. The attacking side would hold multiple reinforcement points as opposed to the other teams one. With the aggressive bleed and the need for a risky breaky out against a team that can reinforce in depth, games would get horrendously imbalanced quickly. It would encourage flag rushing further to secure as many spawn points as possible quickly. Time spent maneuvering off flag would potentially be regarded by many as time wasted. Intelligent, tactical play would wither as both teams endlessly piled into the middle to clash mindlessly on flags.

                    The above is hypothetical, as is the suggestion, however I have seen enough over the years to know that every change, every setting has both positive and negative outcomes, often magnified by unintended affects on player behaviour. This is why determining the optimum settings for our server, keeping our gameplay goal in mind, is extremely tricky and not a simple matter at all and why we don't apply top of the head, back of a cigarette packet ideas without a great deal of thought.

                    Nevertheless an interesting suggestion, though to be honest, in view of your position on other settings it does have the whiff of being contrary for the sake of it about it lol.
                    Hahaha. This isn't a trap.

                    Squad leaders can choose to bring a recon with a radio beacon. This alleviates some of the take from what I feel like this change would give us. BF4 flags aren't very spread out (compared to PR) and generally, not arranged linearly. That also helps.

                    I think it's certainly worth a try.

                    Again on a personal note. I love playing the recon class... I'm not promoting sniper spam but this would make the class a more viable strategic tool. Which I've been longing for.
                    Last edited by Guardianx11x; 11-23-2013, 12:24 PM.
                    Shhhh I'm being made



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                      Originally posted by Gogeta View Post
                      Should I start an entire new thread ranting about the same thing you are ? I guess my question in my post was pretty much rhetorical.. as I already know the answer. I wasn't looking for an answer. I was sorta trying to point out that there are several things being utilized/taken advantage of on TG's server, as well as every other one out there.

                      But, on a second note, you might want to speak with the GO or Admins about this. Starting a rant thread demanding change and quoting the Primer isn't exactly the best way to get things accomplished, at least not back in my day.
                      Sorry, I'm trying to keep this very specific.

                      In regards to your second note. I don't want this if the community feels it's a dumb idea. As much as I think this would be a cool and fun change, I value the feedback.
                      Shhhh I'm being made



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                        Guardian I certainly don't think it's a dumb idea and I am relieved it's not a trap lol.

                        It does require a lot of thought though and that must include the limitations of the maps, their size etc.

                        If we could alter the game to make it no spawn on SL (we can't I'm afraid) you have to look at the size and location of every flag. Whilst some of the flags aren't linear, linearity isn't the only issue. In essence what you would see in certain scenarios is base/spawn camping, but on flags. If you held only one flag, in other words you're already having a rough time of it, you would have only two spawn locations, your UCB and said flag. Your opponent has lets say 4 flags and their UCB. Now, the maps aren't huge. It would be a simple matter for your opponent to encircle both with layers of infantry, snipers and armour. As your opponent has you pinned in one of two locations their flanks would be fairly secure and the likelihood of anyone getting behind their armour screen very small. Your opponents would be able to strafe the contestable flag and their AA should be able to deter any air from the UCB.
                        I thnk your air would probably have a hard time getting out of UCB radius.

                        Were I on the team with one flag, I think I would be having a very bad day.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                          Originally posted by Wicks View Post
                          Guardian I certainly don't think it's a dumb idea and I am relieved it's not a trap lol.

                          It does require a lot of thought though and that must include the limitations of the maps, their size etc.

                          If we could alter the game to make it no spawn on SL (we can't I'm afraid) you have to look at the size and location of every flag. Whilst some of the flags aren't linear, linearity isn't the only issue. In essence what you would see in certain scenarios is base/spawn camping, but on flags. If you held only one flag, in other words you're already having a rough time of it, you would have only two spawn locations, your UCB and said flag. Your opponent has lets say 4 flags and their UCB. Now, the maps aren't huge. It would be a simple matter for your opponent to encircle both with layers of infantry, snipers and armour. As your opponent has you pinned in one of two locations their flanks would be fairly secure and the likelihood of anyone getting behind their armour screen very small. Your opponents would be able to strafe the contestable flag and their AA should be able to deter any air from the UCB.
                          I thnk your air would probably have a hard time getting out of UCB radius.

                          Were I on the team with one flag, I think I would be having a very bad day.
                          I see your point. There is a lot to consider.

                          I'm only advocating giving this a try. If it sucks, it sucks.
                          Shhhh I'm being made



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                          • #14
                            Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                            Originally posted by Guardianx11x View Post

                            In regards to your second note. I don't want this if the community feels it's a dumb idea. As much as I think this would be a cool and fun change, I value the feedback.
                            Im all for discussion to brother, don't get me wrong.. I guess just the title of this thread kinda tweaked the ol moderator in me lol.. it doesn't exactly scream "let's have a constructive discussion"
                            Dizlor


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                            • #15
                              Re: The Squad Leader spawn point needs to go.

                              I always felt that this was one aspect of the squadleader's role ?
                              The squadleader role is not about run and gunning its about giving his squad the most viable ways to accomplish objectives.
                              I move with my squad but Im very mindful of holding a position where they can respawn and during that time Im pulling up the main map and giving them information as they progress or defend on the objective.
                              Lots of times I have very bad KDR as a result of putting my squad first but its about accomplishing the obejective and not my KDR.

                              I don't always hold off and make a Lazy spawn point 40-60 (moving/engaging), but that depends on the enemies resources at the objective we are dealing with.
                              I make a decision based on that information as to how I act with the betterment of my squad the main reason behind my decision.

                              With that said , I have also called for a recon in the squad to put down a tugs to locate a enemy squad leader.
                              This is when it becomes a battle of SL vs SL in a tactical sense.
                              I'm not one to have my squad leave a base without clearing it first so I deal with this quite a bit.

                              I also want to point out that there is nothing lazy about juggling all of these aspects at once when your squadleader.
                              Just because some times your behind a rock or in a bush, doesn't mean your being lazy. Your basically playing mini commander on a smaller scale. I would ask that you think about what all is going on here.
                              I can be hiding in brush and still be doing a Lot . I also willl move to support my squads flank when i see someone trying to flank them on the map.
                              There are lots of times my squads have no idea what all im doing or how many times I save them from getting flanked.
                              The position of the base you are attacking has a lot to do with this too, Getting wiped from a position that takes a while to get back to is another factor.

                              The squadleader has a lot going on , keep that in mind.

                              Now on the flip side, sure there are some lazy people that end up in those positions.
                              Gamertag 360= DESODE

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