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  • Engineer Exploit

    I would like to make a motion that having one or two engineers inside an attack helo should be viewed as an exploit. Not only is there only a small area to repair (have to find it much like a glitch), but with a repair on board it is almost impossible to bring one down. Even against AA it is still almost impossible, so on maps with out MAA assets they are basically god. I tried to just let it go, but at this point I really can't. Seeing the unkillable helicopters buzzing around with pilots who go 50-2 is just silly and I find myself wanting to leave the server. If its just me, I will shut up but I find it very frustrating. Especially when you have armor and infantry to deal with.

    My personal opinion is they should land to repair. Give them the same chance armor has, at least you can knock out his repair guy and then try the tank.

    [unit][squadl][command2]

    KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

  • #2
    Re: Engineer Exploit



    I don't know that it's a true exploit as the helos have been designed to be reparable in lots of other versions of the game, but it is pretty annoying.
    .

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    • #3
      Re: Engineer Exploit

      Agree completely.

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      • #4
        Re: Engineer Exploit

        A song as old as time


        doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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        • #5
          Re: Engineer Exploit

          I'm obviously a biased party, so I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

          "Exploit" is not the proper word for this problem, but I agree that it's an incredibly frustrating issue, and I don't like it, either. I wish stingers were less powerful so that having double repairs wasn't the only way to stay alive in close quarters. Things were better when the only way to lock on to helicopters was a tracer dart.

          I actually prefer larger maps where it's more about staying low and avoiding the MAA and jets (Golmud and Paracel), rather than small maps (Flood Zone and Zavod 311) where you pretty much just spam repairs until your flares are up, then kill two or three people and run away to repair again. The big maps feel like Battlefield, the small maps feel like World of Warcraft, where you're just waiting for cooldowns before you can actually do anything.

          My favorite matches are the ones where I can fly solo and support the rest of my squad on the ground (a la). I don't enjoy playing a full chopper against an army of stingers. It gets really old really fast when all you're doing is flying against mobility crit after mobility crit and listening to your squad repair you. That sort of setup can't take the most important flags - all it can do is cover the outskirts.
          Last edited by fex; 12-04-2013, 10:10 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: Engineer Exploit

            I dunno, what about RPG damage to a helo? I just took down FEX in his Helo with two other TG guys in it on Zavod 311. Were they engineers or sight seers?

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            • #7
              Re: Engineer Exploit

              Hitting a littlebird with an RPG is almost impossible unless the pilot is not moving at all. The things are so agile that it's very easy to dodge everything.

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              • #8
                Re: Engineer Exploit

                Originally posted by OldGunney View Post
                I dunno, what about RPG damage to a helo? I just took down FEX in his Helo with two other TG guys in it on Zavod 311. Were they engineers or sight seers?
                Engineers. We had a good run in that game, but you nailed us real good with that RPG a few times.

                Like I was saying a couple days ago, I die way, way more often to dumb-fire RPGs and well-placed SRAW shots than to stingers/iglas. If you use a stinger on me, I'm going to pull out and run as far away as I can until my flares are up, then I'm going to come in and kill you. On the other hand, if you let me get close and comfortable, I'm a very easy target for an RPG.

                It's also worth mentioning that on every map besides Flood Zone, it's the MAA's job to kill me. If I'm in the air, it's because your MAA isn't doing their job. (Which, in turn, might mean that your other armor isn't helping your MAA stay alive.)

                Flood Zone is very imba for the little bird. If there was a way to disable the scout chopper from spawning on Flood Zone, I would support doing that.

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                • #9
                  Re: Engineer Exploit

                  That is exactly what should happen fex, you should get 'run off' by the shoulder fired stuff. It buys time, and helps with ground movement. The trouble is, if I have on or two repair guys I can barrel in with the little bird and not worry about it. It prevents you from actually flying it to protect the asset. (not YOU you, but you know what I mean). If I know I can't be brought down, I fly on top of a flag or do strafing runs with out cause for concern. It shouldn't be a 'if its a map with MAA then I worry" type deal. The Pilots should always be worried. The shoulder fired AA isn't that widely used because of the armor threats. That and the players know it's pointless to even try. But, if you remove the ability to be repaired on the go and give a little incentive to fly careful and watch where you land to repair it will increase the pucker factor and raise the level of pilots and game play. Right now (personal opinion time) there is nothing preventing aggressive/borderline reckless flying as you can be fixed while you do it. It shouldn't be a case of "lucky RPG's shots" when it can be case of "lets work together, I will lock and fire, then you and we can get a hit" make them work together to bring the bird down. We do the same for armor, you take the repair guy I will RPG the tank. There is a reason the tanks use cover and retreat. Its to protect themselves. All I'm saying is give the infantry a fighting chance.

                  As for the maps, Flood Zone no MAA little bird kills everything and cant be killed with repair. Pilot flys recklessly and has no worry about being brought down. Golmund, there is MAA so you have to fly careful. You have to pop and shoot targets and duck behind hills. Pilots fly carefully, and calculated. Why shouldn't we aim for this in all maps? Promote an atmosphere of asset management. Not one of "give me 2 repair guys and we wont die so lets go balls out". Thats all I'm saying.

                  [unit][squadl][command2]

                  KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                  • #10
                    Re: Engineer Exploit

                    MAAs with active radar missiles and 30mms can pretty easily down a Little Bird before it has any idea what hit it. Instantly knock of 50% of its health, switch to the 30mms and take off another chunk and possibly kill an engi, and the volley off two more missiles for the finisher. Unless the pilot is very good and there is a good ground to retreat to, MAAs win over scout helis pretty easilly. I've killed helis on Dawnbreaker before they could make it across the street.

                    Now, without MAAs, scout helis are ridiculously hard to kill. You need a really, really good SRAW shot because a decent pilot isn't going to sit still long enough to get hit by an RPG unless its a one in a million shot. IGLAs are the next best bet, since every so often, if the range is right, you can fire one off, have it flared away, and then reload and relock before the missile goes away, letting you hit the chopper with two at once.

                    If DICE would cut the rate of repairs drastically for a short period after you take damage (say, 10% repair for 5 seconds after a hit, then 50% repair for the next 15), they'd be much easier to drop. So would attack boats, who are basically IFVs that can repair on the move. It'd also encourage retreating after you got hit instead of repairing under fire. I seem to remember this behavior in BC2, I wonder why they ditched it.

                    (But at least helis don't have infinite insta-reload flares anymore! That was the worst)
                    I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Engineer Exploit

                      Well, if we have learned anything over the years its not to wait for Dice to fix it lmao. So in the interim I think we can as a community reach a gentleman's agreement on the matter.

                      [unit][squadl][command2]

                      KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                      • #12
                        Re: Engineer Exploit

                        Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                        MAAs with active radar missiles and 30mms can pretty easily down a Little Bird before it has any idea what hit it. Instantly knock of 50% of its health, switch to the 30mms and take off another chunk and possibly kill an engi, and the volley off two more missiles for the finisher. Unless the pilot is very good and there is a good ground to retreat to, MAAs win over scout helis pretty easilly. I've killed helis on Dawnbreaker before they could make it across the street.
                        I just want to echo this sentiment, and confirm that I agree with Dredge that that Flood Zone is the biggest problem (because it's the only map where a bird is present and an MAA is not). On every other map, including the small ones like Zavod 311, it is the MAA's job to swat the little bird out of the sky, and their job is very, very easy. I have to know where the MAA is at all times, and if I overstep my bounds even for a few seconds, I'm dead. As a result, on every map besides Flood Zone, I'm forced to play carefully and I'm limited to only one or two flags the entire game. I like this. I wish we could have this on Flood Zone.

                        Why shouldn't we aim for this in all maps?
                        I think we should. Like you said, though, it's unlikely that DICE is going to do anything about it, so it's pretty much up to us to come up with a solution on our own. There are a handful of options.

                        The kneejerk approach would be to ban the use of the little bird on Flood Zone. We could try a half-measured approach like banning in-flight repairs on Flood Zone, but without repairs, that map is too small to use the bird solo, anyway, so it's effectively the exact same as banning it altogether. This would solve the problem very quickly, but I worry that it wouldn't be enforced - not to mention that it's "yet another crazy rule" that could potentially drive people away from the community.

                        A slightly more effective approach would be to just remove Flood Zone from the rotation entirely, but this would be a little disappointing, since I actually like Flood Zone quite a lot (and not just in the chopper :P). But we've effectively learned to live without Siege of Shanghai, which is another one of my favorite maps, so I'm sure we could adapt to losing yet another map (especially since we'll be adding the new maps soon, presumably).

                        Last but not least, part of the solution can just be learning to counter the little bird on Flood Zone. I know that sounds like a cop out, but it has already happened, to some degree. Any squad that's on the roofs of B/C on Flood Zone should be equipped with at least one stinger at all times. The LAVs can't get up there, so there's really no reason to carry an RPG / SRAW unless you just like to gamble against birds (something Gunney has learned to do very well). Loading up the roofs with stingers pretty much forces me to stick to A or E (whichever one is not in range of your stationary AA gun), or try to help out at D (which the bird really isn't good at) - so you've essentially cut me down to one and a half flags of effective use on a 5-flag map.

                        Another secret that I don't really like giving away is that the attack boat and RHIBs are crazy good against the little bird at medium range, and on a map as small as Flood Zone, there's pretty much no escaping them. There's a reason I don't fly the bird on Paracel Storm until I've cleared the boats, and it's because a single RHIB or a single gunner on the back of an aboat can drop me just as fast as an MAA at medium range. I guess what I'm saying is that if the first thing your squad did was flood the map each round, you'd see a lot less of me in the chopper.

                        Anyway, I'm blathering again. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, just repeating it all from the other side of the coin.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Engineer Exploit

                          I think a starting place could be nixing repairs on moving helicopters and see what that does. If the game play will balance out or the dynamic of the maps changes.

                          [unit][squadl][command2]

                          KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                          • #14
                            Re: Engineer Exploit

                            They need to make the repair time shorter and the recharge longer.


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                            • #15
                              Re: Engineer Exploit

                              just curious, how did TG handle the BF2 anti-air units that had a second seat that actually allowed you to repair the vehicle or even fire AT rounds out the front? If we look at how that was handled, maybe we could take into consideration before doing anything rash...



                              Interested in listening to guitar playing and a good conversation, look for me on TS.

                              "Hope is for the weak. I hope for nothing. I work for things. That is the only way for events to unfold." -Cleverbot

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