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Bleed: Tickets per Second

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  • Bleed: Tickets per Second

    Okay, so I launched into an unranked server with three different Conquest Large maps (with no players required to start the round). I used a stop watch and I counted. Please see my other ticket bleed article here. Here's the summary of what I found:

    TLDR
    In the game you need quick, convenient yardsticks. Here's what I would use. It's grossly simplified, so add the complexity below at your desire, but...

    +1 flags bleeds 100 tickets every 3 minutes, 20 seconds
    +2 flags bleeds 100 tickets every 2 minutes, 30 seconds
    +3 flags bleeds 100 tickets every 2 minutes
    +4 flags bleeds 100 tickets every 1 minutes, 40 seconds.

    DETAILS

    General
    1. It doesn't matter how many flags the minority side has. If there are 3 red flags and zero blue flags it's the same as if there are 3 red flags and 2 blue flags. This has been the case in other BF games, but is confirmed for BF4.
    2. Tickets bleed at an UNEVEN rate. That is to say while over the long run they average about the same number of tickets per time period, they do so in fits and starts. Specifically, each ticket either bleeds at TWO seconds per ticket or ONE second per ticket. The more flags you have, the more often the one second tickets happen. For example, with 5 out of 5 flags on Flood Zone, roughly one in ten tickets waits 2 seconds to fall, while the other 9 of 10 tickets fall in one second.
    3. Seconds Per Ticket do NOT diminish in a steady rate. Each additional flag over the majority flag has diminishing returns.
    4. This was a little challenging due to the uneven rate of losing tickets, but I'm fairly confident I am at least in striking distance of the official numbers.
    5. I am ASSUMING that other maps that use the same number of flags bleed at the same rate. I have not tested them. Please also note that these numbers are for CONQUEST LARGE. I have no idea what these numbers are for Conquest or Domination.
    6. Yes, I believe the number for Zavod 6 of 6 is correct. It bleeds slower than Flood Zone's 5 of 5. Don't ask me why.


    Flood Zone (5 flag maps)

    3 out of 5 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.9 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~30
    800 tickets diminish in: ~26.7 minutes

    4 out of 5 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.5 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~40
    800 tickets diminish in: 20 minutes

    5 out of 5 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.1 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: 55.5
    800 tickets diminish in: 15.8 minutes

    Zavod (6 flag maps)

    4 out of 6 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.9 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~30
    800 tickets diminish in: ~26.7 minutes

    5 out of 6 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.5 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~40
    800 tickets diminish in: ~20 minutes

    6 out of 6 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.3 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~46
    800 tickets diminish in: ~17.4 minutes

    Golmud Railway (7 flag maps)
    4 out of 7 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.7 seconds average (I checked this repeatedly as I expected 1.9 or higher.)
    Tickets Per Minute: ~35
    800 tickets diminish in: ~22.9 minutes

    5 out of 7 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.45 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~41
    800 tickets diminish in: ~19.5 minutes

    6 out of 7 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1.15 seconds average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~52
    800 tickets diminish in: ~15.4 minutes

    7 out of 7 flags
    Per Ticket: ~1 second average
    Tickets Per Minute: ~60
    800 tickets diminish in: ~13.3 minutes
    .

  • #2
    Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

    Back of the napkin SL summary:

    If at the end of the first engagement, you're a flag down, you have between 7 and 13 minutes before the round is lost. And to actually win, you need to capture 'flag difference' x2 in 4-7 minutes.

    This in conjunction with other thread by Zoraster showing killing and dying both pretty much have zero impact on whether your team wins or loses ... elucidates why no one defends flags. It's simply a damned silly idea to defend a flag when your death is pretty much meaningless. It's better to rush the hostiles, lose your 1 or 5 tickets, and in turn slow them down enough to bleed them 30 tickets.

    There is no penalty, and no reason NOT to simply attack each and every time. When holding 3/5 flags, it is a momnumentally silly idea to defend. You gain nothing by doing so, and give up free ground to the losing side. The only thing you need to worry about are flanks. With proper use of TUGS, recon balls, and CO recon planes ... the blanket answer to "what are we doing now" is "attacking".

    I can't be the only person who thinks this is incredibly broken.

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    • #3
      Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

      Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
      There is no penalty, and no reason NOT to simply attack each and every time. When holding 3/5 flags, it is a momnumentally silly idea to defend. You gain nothing by doing so, and give up free ground to the losing side.
      I think I know what you are trying to say Zhohar:

      - Keep the enemy on their toes
      - Don't settle for 3/5
      - Have an aggressive defensive posture that covers flanks


      ... but to say its a silly idea to defend at all and there is no penalty for not doing so is crazy talk. If bleed is all that matters - why let one lone guy walk in and take it away? I think you complained about lone guys capping flags in another thread - cause and effect!
      |TG-12th|mantis

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      • #4
        Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

        Could you walk us through 7 to 13 minutes, Zhohar?

        Anyway, I think one of the things about the argument between Defense and Offense that is missed is that (a) only rarely should both teams be doing only one or the other all the time [at least for 32 player teams] and (b) Defense is often as much about delay as it is keeping a flag.

        On most maps, where there are not sufficient choke points to ensure holding the line completely (i.e. not Locker), if a team decides to take an individual flag, they will be able to accomplish that theoretically, though potentially at major game losing cost (losing other flags being the biggest thing). This is largely due to the concentration of force issue that defensive units face. They are necessarily spread out while the other team attacks at a particular point. The maps are largely designed so that playing pure defense will not work over the long term.

        But tickets from deaths aren't the only thing being traded by attacking a defensive position. Time and pace are as well.

        As an attacking squad, your job isn't just to get and then hold a flag. It's to get a flag faster than the other team takes to take one of your own. I know it's frustrating to be an attacking squad, get your objective and then take a look at the map and realize those other buffoons managed to lose a flag in the time it took you. But you didn't do your job as well as the other team's attacking squad did. They have a pace advantage on you.

        One way to get a majority of flags when you're down isn't just to grab two and defend them while a squad of yours attacks. But another valid strategy is to continually build a pace differential and act as if flags are largely fungible. Defending a flag can be quite useful if it takes a long time to take the flag for the other team. This is why squad wipes are so important. By wiping the squad, you make it so that their attack can't succeed in a matter of seconds but rather it'll take a matter of minutes. In that time, either your squad can attack another flag, thus making it hard for the other team to achieve a majority of flags or you can stay at your flag and hope that another squad does that.

        And if you can take a flag faster than it'll take for the other team to take the flag you just took, that's often worth losing the flag.

        But these things are incredibly complicated. Because the certainty of success matters a lot.

        The fact of the matter is that speed matters in this game a lot. You can "slow down the game" by making it harder to do things, but that doesn't slow down the pressing need to act quickly.
        Last edited by Zoraster; 11-29-2013, 10:37 PM.
        .

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        • #5
          Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

          Speed is relative and not constant, it's actually very effective to take 3 out of 5 flags and make people come to you. The flipside is whilst many feel they are most effective piling forward to increase the bleed the real skill is making the other guy rush on to your knife. Yeah, probe, jab, prod at that 4th flag as provocation but to what end, finishing the game faster? This is what we want to get away from, the E-Sports mentality of expediency over experience. Instead of being average at flag hopping but capping the flag, be good at defending. The pace of the game is in your hands and when you control the pace of your opponent, then you know you can really play.


          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

            Speed is not really that relative when bleed is constant (ignoring Zavod's even numbered maps for a moment)

            I understand you feel that people are blindly attacking the shiny thing, and that can definitely be true. But that doesn't mean that being offensive, even when you have 3 out of 5 flags is a suboptimal play. Whether it is or isn't is really context dependent based on the map, personnel on both sides, current positioning, and how many tickets are left in the game as well as a multitude of other factors.
            .

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            • #7
              Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

              I completely agree with Wicks here.

              At one time, a long time ago, in a galaxy far away, I was one with the mentality, "rush forward, kill 'em all, take more kills than deaths and we win!" Then LuckyShot, the great leader of the now disband 5th IHS, explained, (in short hand)"We take and hold a flag, defend it, let them come to us, we kill them for more tickets than they can account for in the bleed, we win." .. "Defenders will always have the advantage, as the attackers are usually having to cover open ground, while the defenders will be using cover to our advantage."

              I cant tell you have many times we defended a Lumbermill and only saw the same squad trying to flank up to the flag, over and over, and over. Until the round was over, or they brought a bunch of friends, or a tank, or Santa. Of course communication is key to defense, more so than attacking, everyone needs to know where contacts are coming from, how many died, if the same guy has been killed multiple times(an obvious hint a SL is hiding out there)

              Zoraster, I get what you are saying about the losing a flag behind you as you are taking another. I shake my head more than once a night as I see the blueberries rnning away from a flag we just took to go get another, as that flag is blinking, and it is usually just that one guy who is hiding in a corner.

              Every time I see the blueberries leaving a flag that has just started blinking, I giggle just a little, as I think of "Nube" from BFF, screaming to himself, "WOOO!, I'm playing Battlefield! Taking flags! Throwin' nades! Killin' n00bs! Get sum!" of course in that crazy Nube voice.. Of course singing "Birdie Legs" as they take a new flag, while the one they just took has already flipped. And then I /facepalm

              Would somebody mind if I started singing "Birdie Legs" in TS every time I take a flag? jk
              theeANGELofDEATH(Steam/Origin)
              E Pluribus Unum
              Sarcasm is just another free service I offer
              Si vis pacem, para bellum .. Molon Labe

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

                I think if the numbers show anything, it is that on odd flag maps (i.e. all but Zavod right now) you cannot win without having bleed. Period. You simply aren't making up enough tickets, even if you defending is turning a 2 to 1 kill to death ratio. If a team defends a minority of flags without attacking they will lose unless it's near the end of the round and the team had a large lead anyway (indicating past bleed).

                I can certainly understand the impulse to defend a majority of flags without attacking. But I cannot think of a reason you would choose to have your entire team defend a minority of flags that is supported by facts.

                Bleed with a simple majority on Flood Zone is 30 tickets a minute. Even if you managed to squad wipe a squad every time they spawn immediately, on TG you'll only earn about 20 tickets. And obviously no one is doing that. No one on our server much less an entire squad is averaging 4 kills a minute, which is what that would imply.
                Last edited by Zoraster; 11-29-2013, 10:54 PM.
                .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

                  Let me illustrate by showing this from the perspective of an awesome Defensive Squad:

                  You're in a squad defending a flag in a 3 to 5 breakdown in favor of your team. The enemy sends THREE full squads at you. You hold them off with huge plays: a triple kill with an air burst, you get a key revive that saves your squad from wiping, freezing the flag when it's only got a tiny bit of blue left and your squad turns it back while fighting off the enemy squads... you do this for 3 solid minutes, holding off their entire team. This has become your Alamo. But like the Alamo, eventually all mortal heroes must perish, and your squad wipes.

                  Breathing heavily from the exhilaration, you open up your map. One of two things greets you:

                  1. Despite having occupied three squads for three full minutes, presumably leaving their other flags open and easily capturable, the other squads have done nothing. They've held their flags but nothing else. Now you are at 2 flags and have bleed. Your last stand was good for 100 tickets, but now your team has to start from zero while under bleed.

                  2. Your squad held off half the other team's players leaving Alpha open. Squad B on your team, previously defending Bravo, saw an opening and attacked in force on it, meeting minimal resistance. When your wiped squad spawns now, you spawn on Bravo and can defend there. Your team has managed to maintain bleed.

                  One of these had a team that treated the game like the dynamic thing it is. One of them treated it like the goal is to simply capture 3 flags and defend until they're taken and then and only then attack.

                  Sure there are other options in this scenario. Maybe one of those other squads come to help you defend, for example. But that's often not a viable option. For example, it's easier to attack a lightly defended Alpha from Bravo on Paracel Storm than it is to reinforce a Squad on Delta.
                  .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bleed: Tickets per Second

                    Originally posted by Zoraster View Post
                    Speed is not really that relative when bleed is constant (ignoring Zavod's even numbered maps for a moment)

                    I understand you feel that people are blindly attacking the shiny thing, and that can definitely be true. But that doesn't mean that being offensive, even when you have 3 out of 5 flags is a suboptimal play. Whether it is or isn't is really context dependent based on the map, personnel on both sides, current positioning, and how many tickets are left in the game as well as a multitude of other factors.
                    I totally agree, I don't think nor would I say attacking is sub-optimal. In fact I think the notion of optimal play is an abject farce lol. Everything is situational. The point I hoped to make to some degree is that defending is something that is greatly overlooked, as people often seem to assume it must be better as it feels more proactive, you know "I'm not just going to stand here, I'm going to do something about this". I feel that's a common theme, perhaps with many of us at times. Mistaking aggressive action for being proactive when often decision making itself is action. Making a conscious choice not to leave a flag simply to get another and potentially trade is very proactive, it's marching to your own beat rather than being caught up in the rush.

                    You don't even need to sit the whole squad there like some lazy sentries in a third grade movie. Split the squad. Move some people forward into the dead ground between flags and intercept the other team as they cross open ground in their push for 'moarrr flags'. If you have friendlies on the next flag as well and they are under assault, vector in on your enemies angle of approach and hit them there. You can often do that whilst still keeping one eye on the flag you are 'defending'. Having people slip onto your assigned flag isn't always a disaster either, in terms of clearing them out. What you often find is that your opponent will be sweeping the flag, somewhat facing inward. Well if you follow them in, almost right behind them, you can often simply shoot them all in the back. They are usually looking for defenders on flag facing out, not defenders that have slipped into the queue that is attacking the flag lol.

                    It's important to have as many tools/tactics/approaches in your bag as possible so you can adapt to all the factor that affect play, as you have mentioned.


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