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  • Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

    While it is true that in the TG forums one is free to make any style of argument (while maintaining civility), there are some basic principles of rhetoric that will significantly influence how an argument or assertion is received.

    As I frequently remind my undergraduate students, few things will destroy the credibility of an argument more than overstatements, exaggerated claims, and the failure to take into account reasonable alternative theories. Most issues are subject to reasonable counter-perspectives, most (all?) theories are disputed, and few things are axiomatic when it comes to the social world.

    Consider the following claim:
    "No matter how much someone tries to say how TS is a replacement for in-game VOIP, it's just not...period. <---Not an opinion, but a fact, no matter how much anyone tries to say that either."

    The simple fact of the matter is that TS is indeed being used as a replacement for VOIP, and has been in many circumstances here at TG for many years. It may be an imperfect or even terrible replacement, but it is a replacement.

    To argue otherwise begs the definition of the word "replacement".

    One might argue that TS is a very poor, inadequate, or entirely inadequate replacement for VOIP. One could split hairs and argue that they have nothing in common, and therefore cannot replace each other, but as the issue is in-game communication via voice, the similarities outweigh the differences. Given that, in the end, on TG in BC2 we can end up with significant number of players using TS, clearly, the notion of "replacement" is not without merit.

    One cannot argue that something that is functioning as a replacement it is not a replacement and still be in the domain of reasonable and reasoned discourse.

    Recognizing the merit in an opposing viewpoint is far more fruitful in the exchange of ideas than simply dismissing another perspective on the matter.
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  • #2
    Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

    Ok, fine. I had originally had the word "good" in front of the word "replacement" but took it out. Consider it back in there. That of course that does make it an opinion though.

    Or lets try a different statement: TS alone is inferior as a form of in-game communication in comparison to in-game VOIP and TS combined.

    BF2, 2142, Arma, etc. are all games I love to play but it's my opinion that they would suck without VOIP, and I wouldn't play them if that were the case.

    I purchased BC2 at launch and put 50 hrs into it, before shelving it due mostly to the lack of promised VOIP, despite TS3 being used the entire time.

    No matter how much someone tries to say how TS is a replacement for in-game VOIP, it's just not...IMHO
    Last edited by Harlequin; 02-14-2011, 12:30 PM. Reason: Took out a personal dig at E-male that was unwarranted.

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    • #3
      Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

      I really like BC2. It lacks tools to be as tactical as BF2 and 2142, but I find the fast paced action caters to my preferences. I often get irked when people say it's not a tactical or teamwork oriented game. Sure it's not as tactical as others, but to say it's completely devoid of teamwork or tactics is a gross exaggeration.

      That being said, I have to agree with the quote. TS is not a replacement for in-game voip. It's a workaround, but definitely not a replacement. The best example that illustrates this is the ability to communicate to squad members who are not in TS. With in-game voip, they can hear your voice, and don't have to do anything outside the game to access this ability. TS works for those of us who want to go the extra step to get communication, but it does little to invite others to communicate who are just passing by.

      P.S., if you're going to quote someone, it's typically bad form to quote them without "citing the reference".


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      • #4
        Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

        Originally posted by Pvt Brokeback View Post
        P.S., if you're going to quote someone, it's typically bad form to quote them without "citing the reference".
        Thanks BrokeBack. I am fairly familiar with forum ediquette after 21 years in them, but it is always good to be reminded of the basics.

        I did not attribute the quote in this instance as I wanted to ensure that this was not seen as a personal attack. It is not. It is mostly just a commentary on an oft-seen phenomenon.

        One could argue that a work-around or kludge is a temporary solution, and TS in this instance is and has been used as a permanent solution (barring the unlikely fix by Dice).

        One could also argue that work around here is used as a synonym for replacement. Words are at best imprecise things . . .

        Yet, and again, to assert that it is "definitely not a replacement" defies logic and semantics. There is little that is definite about its definition or perceived utility.
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        • #5
          Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

          I get what you are saying, but consider what the purpose of that quote is. What I took from that comment is that the person who wrote it feels that TS is inferior to in game VOIP and nothing anyone says about it will change that. It is a statement made on the internet. I agree that the comment made did not encourage discussion of the matter, it happens.

          Compare the quote you used from that other thread with this one:

          Originally posted by E-Male View Post
          One might argue that TS is a very poor, inadequate, or entirely inadequate replacement for VOIP. One could split hairs and argue that they have nothing in common, and therefore cannot replace each other, but as the issue is in-game communication via voice, the similarities outweigh the differences. Given that, in the end, on TG in BC2 we can end up with significant number of players using TS, clearly, the notion of "replacement" is not without merit.
          What is the difference between them?
          Not much I would say, person A says it is not a replacement and person B says it possibly is.
          Person A says it is a fact, person B says there is merit.


          Originally posted by E-Male View Post
          Recognizing the merit in an opposing viewpoint is far more fruitful in the exchange of ideas than simply dismissing another perspective on the matter.
          I fully agree with this, however that is not what this is about in my mind. To me this post is about you venting your frustration over the comment you read, in fact by starting this thread instead of continuing in the other, you made that person feel the need to elaborate on the statement made, in a way calling that person out. You both have valid points and starting this thread feels a bit unnecessary, at least that is how I feel.
          "Nemo Saltat Sobrius, Nisi Forte Insanit"

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          • #6
            Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

            Originally posted by Lien View Post
            To me this post is about you venting your frustration over the comment you read, in fact by starting this thread instead of continuing in the other, you made that person feel the need to elaborate on the statement made, in a way calling that person out. You both have valid points and starting this thread feels a bit unnecessary, at least that is how I feel.
            Of perhaps I simply saw it as a "teachable moment" and an opportunity to reflect on something I have been dwelling on for a while.

            I have too often been guilty of hijacking a thread thus I opened this one to err on the safe side.

            I certainly was aware that doing so would risk "calling that person out" -- that was not my intent, and the matter is hardly one of great shame. Forums are intended as vehicles for casual conversation, and no ones says that one must be rigorous in their logic or skilled in rhetoric.

            You are correct, there is no necessity to this thread. It is merely an aside. As one would find in any group conversation, the subject twists and turns, sentences go unfinished, words get lost in the noise of the exchange, and meanings get mangled.

            I'm just 'thinking out loud'.

            I certainly regret any offensive and apologize for singling anyone out.
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            • #7
              Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

              Originally posted by E-Male View Post
              Of perhaps I simply saw it as a "teachable moment" and an opportunity to reflect on something I have been dwelling on for a while.
              That was not made clear in your initial post.

              Originally posted by E-Male View Post
              I certainly was aware that doing so would risk "calling that person out" -- that was not my intent, and the matter is hardly one of great shame. Forums are intended as vehicles for casual conversation, and no ones says that one must be rigorous in their logic or skilled in rhetoric.
              If you were aware of that from the get go, why did you not write that it was not your intent to call anyone out? And why would you in that case use specifically that comment, which was made not long before you started this thread?


              I guess what I am saying is that maybe you could state your intentions at the start of your post, instead of after to avoid confusion.

              Well, time for dinner
              Can't fight virtual war on a empty stomach
              See you on the battlefield.
              "Nemo Saltat Sobrius, Nisi Forte Insanit"

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              • #8
                Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                Thank you for reading me Sordavie.

                Seeing as you are such a fan of my writing, you might care to purchase my latest books.

                I am sure you will find many other such "overstatements" in them.

                Happy hunting!

                PS. I believe the troll accusation is an overstatement and perhaps not in keeping with TG's community spirit.
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                • #9
                  Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                  Originally posted by Lien View Post
                  To me this post is about you venting your frustration over the comment you read, in fact by starting this thread instead of continuing in the other, you made that person feel the need to elaborate on the statement made, in a way calling that person out. You both have valid points and starting this thread feels a bit unnecessary, at least that is how I feel.
                  What can I say except that you misread my intentions. I could care less about the TS vs VOIP debate.

                  What is or is not necessary, I cannot judge.

                  Am I incorrect in opening up a thread on this matter or incorrect in addressing an opinion voiced in the forums?

                  Opinions vary.

                  At least I have not needlessly slandered a fellow TG member.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                    Originally posted by E-Male View Post
                    At least I have not needlessly slandered a fellow TG member.
                    Are you saying I slandered you?
                    "Nemo Saltat Sobrius, Nisi Forte Insanit"

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                    • #11
                      Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                      Who here can seize the highest ground?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                        Ugh I think this thread is over.

                        I off to seed the TG server.
                        "Nemo Saltat Sobrius, Nisi Forte Insanit"

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                        • #13
                          Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                          Originally posted by SnappingTurtle View Post
                          Who here can seize the highest ground?
                          Oooh, I love King of the Hill! (the game I used to play as a young'un on a big mound of dirt, not the TV show)

                          I'll take the blame for it all, the statement I made in the other thread was quickly made in frustration and anger without much forethought. (not saying it's wrong though :D) Had I not made it, this thread wouldn't even exist. My apologies to all.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Assertions and Overstatements in Forum Threads Such as BC2

                            This thread has significantly degraded and is not about BC2 in any way.

                            Thread closed.
                            Last edited by DrBeat; 02-14-2011, 05:27 PM.

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