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UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

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  • UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

    Alright, so since there are two different maps it makes more sense to have two different discussion threads to cover the discussion. I understand that some may be reluctant to speak openly, but I'm in favor of open, mature debate on the subject. However, I do not have an opinion just yet on this one - my major concern was UCB attacking in Conquest maps, as that was where I ran into issues. But if people have comments or ideas, feel free to share them here!

    **

    "Remember to pillage BEFORE you burn!"





  • #2
    Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

    I agree with vortex. I absolutely respect the sentiments about rush maps, but my sentiment is this: The initial UCB should be off limits, just as if it were a conquest UCB. No entering or firing into it. The goal of the defending team should be defending the mcoms. I dont think anyone here could possibly provide evidence to say that defending the mcoms from the immediate area is impossible. I watch teams do it all the time.
    However, should the first two mcoms be destroyed and the map pushes up, the rules change...a little. Outside defenders (i.e. people that get waxed while the map is progressing up) shouldnt be allowed to enter into or attack the UCB and should continue in a defensive posture. However, if the attacking team fails to properly secure the *new* UCB for the next advancing push, any defenders left in the area should be allowed free reign on killing people within reason. This doesnt mean stealing assets or anything. Just that they should be able to kill freely until the attacking team waxes them. I've never seen this process take more than about 60 seconds anyway.

    So the short version is this for rush maps:
    First set of MCOMs-
    Defenders cannot fire into or enter the UCB.
    Second through last sets of MCOMs-
    Stragglers that the attackers dont kill on the map push can kill until killed within reason.
    Anyone not in the immediate area of the *new* attacking UCB when the map pushes forward is not allowed to enter or attack the *new* UCB.

    It's fairly simple and would solve the problem we have on rush maps, not that I've seen it to be nearly as much of an issue as CQ maps.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

      I like that rule set up Ferris. I think it should be a time limit for the people in the moving UCB though. Say about 2-3 min till they have to leave, and your not aloud to spawn on people IN the new UCB or enter it (as you described). But that's just my opinion :)
      "Anyone" can run in and get a few quick kills... but it takes a "Team" to get in and out alive.
      A tank is more then just a weapon to a dedicated Tank Driver... its a friend that can not be replaced... and a coffin, for his/her corpse.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

        I'm against this type of regulation on Rush mode because:

        a. you can not spawn on a squad member who is in the attackers spawn area (afaik)
        b. if you lose your armor to the defense team then it's because you failed to defend it/use it
        c. it creates a scenario where the defense can have their armor stolen from where it spawns but the attackers can not
        d. the proposed rules above are over complicated and difficult to enforce
        5. in most maps (not all of them) attackers generally move out through a bottleneck making the spawn point quite easy to defend anyway
        vi. if the defense teams has squads or lone wolfs in the attacks spawn point it, in turn, weakens the effective defense of the m-coms; all it takes is one squad member to get out of the spawn point and the rest of the squad have a point to attack from
        g. I've yet to see this spawn point camping on a rush game be a real issue unlike in conquest

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

          Why exactly do we need Rush UCBs?
          I haven't noticed anything in regard to the attackers' staging areas that made the game less fun or unfair to one side.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

            I dont think ucb is an issue at all for rush. No rules for it imo.

            “Up, sluggard, and waste not life; in the grave will be sleeping enough!” Benjamin Franklin

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

              Rush attacker spawn should not be engaged period. Having a ticket count vs the defenders unlimited is a valid enough reason. Having a defender sitting in the attackers spawn in an attackers tank blasting folks as they spawn is not deemed acceptable conduct nor is it sportsmanlike. Defenders are defending coms.. its a very simple rule. If defender tanks etc get taken its because they are within the objective(s) zone.

              Conquest clearly has uncaps that should never even be considered attackable.. Its a last ditch staging area for folks to rally to and try to break the hold on flags.. Given that these uncaps are unfortunately close to flags doesn't give the oppressor the right to shoot into those staging areas.. lay mines at the flags. set up ambush situations but for the love of pete don't sit and fire propelled grenade or AT into the spawns. I had a frustrating game with a squad of 2 AT, 1 Assault and a Medic shooting up every vehicle in sight and everyone in sight at the A side uncap on Panama.

              As for shooting out of uncaps. Sometimes this is required to break a hold on a flag.. folks still should not be able to fire back into said uncap.. Simple solution.. don't make yourself a target and force the enemy to come to the flag.

              I'd rant more but I think other folks need to add input.

              =7thCav=SPC.IronRhino

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                Originally posted by sc1ence View Post
                I dont think ucb is an issue at all for rush. No rules for it imo.
                I agree. Initial UCB I can understand, but as MCOMS drop and the attacking base advances, it should be open season.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                  On most maps, defenders have to fight a good ways up into the map, far away from the MCOM's, to gain LOS on the attacker's base. If the attackers aren't putting enough pressure on the MCOMs, this kind of harassment can spur them into action.

                  I see getting harassed in my UCB on rush as a failure on mine, and my team's part to push strongly enough to contain the defenders around their MCOM's.

                  It's a perfectly acceptable risk vs. reward to have defenders push the line up.

                  After the first set of objectives are taken I think it should be totally laissez-faire with asset stealing included, but I'm sure I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. Free range for shooting attackers in their back should be allowed though, It's punishment for not securing the area.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                    Originally posted by Eclipse View Post
                    On most maps, defenders have to fight a good ways up into the map, far away from the MCOM's, to gain LOS on the attacker's base. If the attackers aren't putting enough pressure on the MCOMs, this kind of harassment can spur them into action.

                    I see getting harassed in my UCB on rush as a failure on mine, and my team's part to push strongly enough to contain the defenders around their MCOM's.

                    It's a perfectly acceptable risk vs. reward to have defenders push the line up.

                    After the first set of objectives are taken I think it should be totally laissez-faire with asset stealing included, but I'm sure I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. Free range for shooting attackers in their back should be allowed though, It's punishment for not securing the area.
                    Just quoting since it's worth reading it twice excellent post!
                    Nubhar

                    - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                      First of all, no way you can tell people to stay out of ucbs once the first 2 mcoms are blown. So we are really only talking about the defenders staying out of the attacking spawn for the first set of mcoms. The starting point attacking spawns for the first set of mcoms are out of bounds on all rush maps. You cant even go in there without dying.

                      so the stay out rule does not apply.


                      A good defense on rush requires a combination of forward defense and sitting back at mcom. Any UCB rule hurt immersion in the game. There is nothing that kills that feeling of near simulation more than having to check your fire on an enemy until they cross some imaginary line.

                      The only reason for a UCB rule is to focus the game on the objectives that matter. The maps and gameplay style of rush are designed in such a way as to make firing into the ucb essentially a non issue. In some cases it is expected. I love parachuting in under fire, It feels really cool. I suggest we revisit it if it becomes a persistent problem. I just don't think this will every be a problem.

                      “Up, sluggard, and waste not life; in the grave will be sleeping enough!” Benjamin Franklin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                        Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                        Just that they should be able to kill freely until the attacking team waxes them. I've never seen this process take more than about 60 seconds anyway.
                        Actually I just did it through 2 caps. Of course I was recon w/Artie so I just 12x zoomed, marked and artied their tanks. Noone ever looked back.

                        Originally posted by sc1ence View Post
                        I dont think ucb is an issue at all for rush. No rules for it imo.
                        Don't play late night without admins on much, do you? Just got done with a disgusting round of Isla Inocentes. Nothing like 2-3 snipers up on the attacker's ridge with rotating arties. Oh, and yahoos using the helis as personal transport so they can solo-drop onto the island to get mowed down. But do it low level since they can't fly. The heli lands, roughly, but flyable. At one time we had both Helis strafting the spawn points and arties going.

                        GOOD TIMES!!!!

                        I don't need to sarcasm tag that, right?

                        Originally posted by Eclipse View Post
                        On most maps, defenders have to fight a good ways up into the map, far away from the MCOM's, to gain LOS on the attacker's base. If the attackers aren't putting enough pressure on the MCOMs, this kind of harassment can spur them into action.
                        Like when they lose the MCOMs but are far forward and just kill people when they spawn in? Any stragglers can run forward to keep the pressure on.

                        After the first set of objectives are taken I think it should be totally laissez-faire with asset stealing included, but I'm sure I'm in the minority on that viewpoint. Free range for shooting attackers in their back should be allowed though, It's punishment for not securing the area.
                        Asset stealing early on when stuff spawns, maybe. But constantly? Please.

                        The rule in other games has always been UCB is off-limits. When the MCOMs are blown and the map shifts is that new spawn point conquerable? No. That makes it an UnConquerable Base.

                        Try playing late night when the server is unregulated to get a sense of how crappy of a game BC2 is without TG rules to temper it. See above on Isla Inocentes about what happens.

                        Ferris' rules would be nice but as always, esp. with the crap job DICE did with making this game viable on the PC, simple is better.

                        Noone in UCB. MCOMs blown, follow orders. NPC orders a fall back. So evac UCB, period.

                        Not ideal but it is simple and better than the alternative.
                        "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                          You can tell from many of these replies on the subject who has nvidia cards and who does not. Nvidia users spawn in so much faster that, yeah, it probably is a personal/team failure since you have control of your own destiny from the getgo. In that context I can completely understand the replies indicating as much. However, when you spawn into Panama Canal for the first time and all points are taken, and you are being insta-gibbed in your ucb simply because the other team spawned in so much earilier than you did your opinion tends to change a bit. Same with Isle Innocentes. Now that people think it is ok to camp UCB's, teams rush to do it for the easy kills. On II yestereday I had a game where I spawned in for the first time and there were two squads up the hill destroying the choppers and the bmp as they were recreated. Oh, and lets not forget the joy of spawning into Actama Destert the first time only to have a helo insta-gib you in your ucb.

                          That said, I don't care much what the rule ends up being. Until VOIP is fixed and some kind of fix is found for the huge disparity in load times between nvidia and ati users, I'm done with the game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                            If an attacker can take out one of my MCOMS simply by bringing down a building either with arty or AT rockets from halfway across the map, I see no reason for my defending team to be limited to a specific area. The defense should be allowed to push as far forward as they want, provided they're not spawn-killing (which happens regardless of the rule). If the attacking team can't get within even rocket range of the targets, it's more often than not a fault of their own- lack of comms, teamwork, etc. And before anyone mentions it again, yes I've played late at night and other times when no admins were present; honestly, the quality is not much (if any) different from when admins ARE present.

                            The idea of constraining one team to a given area is reminiscent of the COD4 defensive boundary lines, which imo was silly and caused a fair amount of disgruntlement.
                            [squadl]
                            "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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                            • #15
                              Re: UCB attacking in Rush maps... discuss here!

                              I feel as thought defenders deserve to defend their MCOMs anyway they see fit(Within the rules, of course.) But I also would like the attacking team get some type of UCB protection on the first set of MCOMs only.

                              But I see no way to implement a rule that is able to do that for all maps without it being too complex. Certain maps give the attacking team a a small patch of dirt as a UCB...

                              What I do see possible, is giving the guys parachuting out of the planes some rule protection. They have no chance of fighting back when they are floating to the ground.

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