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  • On C4 in Rush gamemode

    C4 on m-coms ruin the enjoyment of rush mode for me. Completely.
    The point of the gamemode is for the attackers to arm a charge on an m-com and then defend that charge till it blows. It is not about sneaking to the m-com, dropping enough c4 to destroy a small town and then blowing it up in one go with no chance for the defenders to save it.
    If DICE had planned to gamemode to work like that, the charge would blow the instant it was armed, and the attacker wouldn't have to defend it.
    Furthermore it only takes one C4 squad to roll over an otherwise decently organized team. As long as there is one squad exploiting C4, the rest of the attacking team can sit in their base sniping and still win. I personally do not find that to be in the spirit of TG at all.

    I also know I'm not alone in this view. See:

    Originally posted by ProjectNA View Post
    <takes off admin crown with green jewels>
    I don't know if C4 is a cheap tactic, but I do know that I get a lot less enjoyment out of the game when MCOMs just disappear. I've been on teams with decent to good defense, and its still no fun. Arming the MCOM gives at least a fair shot.

    Now I know half of you is gonna defend your C4 spam with stunning arguments like "Well you're just crying because we're better than you".
    Well you're right. I guess I am. In the same way I'd be annoyed that a hacker is "better" than me.

  • #2
    Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

    Originally posted by Feriluce View Post
    Now I know half of you is gonna defend your C4 spam with stunning arguments like "Well you're just crying because we're better than you".
    Well you're right. I guess I am. In the same way I'd be annoyed that a hacker is "better" than me.
    To start, that is definitely not my argument here. I personally feel that C4 is not cheap or hacking. In beta, one person could c4 a whole mcom so yes it was cheap, bu now you need a lot of teamwork to manage to sneak at least two people through and get 12 c4 on a target to destroy it. Might I remind you that many mcoms are visible from many other parts of the map, so the whole defending team would have to not be looking to at the mcom for you to be able to c4 it. If you change it to c4 not being allowed, the defending team does not even have to stay close to the mcoms or even look behind then unless it starts bleaping, taking a lot of the defensive teamwork out of the game.

    Just my personal views.



    Former TG-21st
    Swift Mobile On Target

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    • #3
      Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

      Originally posted by Darth_Napoleon View Post
      To start, that is definitely not my argument here. I personally feel that C4 is not cheap or hacking. In beta, one person could c4 a whole mcom so yes it was cheap, bu now you need a lot of teamwork to manage to sneak at least two people through and get 12 c4 on a target to destroy it. Might I remind you that many mcoms are visible from many other parts of the map, so the whole defending team would have to not be looking to at the mcom for you to be able to c4 it. If you change it to c4 not being allowed, the defending team does not even have to stay close to the mcoms or even look behind then unless it starts bleaping, taking a lot of the defensive teamwork out of the game.

      Just my personal views.
      Actually on most maps most of the m-coms are in buildings, and it really does not need a lot of teamwork to sneak a squad in. It just takes the defending team not noticing a few players sneaking through the bushes at the edge of the map. Even one person is enough, because once you've dmg'ed the mcom it cant be repaired, meaning its that much easier to destroy.

      Again. As long as the attacking team is just modestly occupying the defenders by shooting at them, its ridiculously easy to sneak into the mcom building on most maps.

      Edit: In regards to the last sentence. I added that because I've seen that ingame a lot.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

        So, in the beta, it took 6 C4 to blow up an MCOM. This was patched in release so it took 12 to blow an MCOM up with C4. If this was not intended, MCOM's would:

        1. Not be placed inside destructable buildings
        2. Be immune to C4

        Also,

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_Bad_Company_2

        Rush
        Players must defend or destroy pairs of M-COM stations for as long as the attacking team's respawn tickets hold out. Lost tickets can be regained by reviving fallen teammates. An M-COM station can be destroyed by planting a charge, using explosive weapons or when a building is collapsed down on it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

          "You must spread some rep around before giving it to Tllyx again."

          As to what Feriluce said, a tactical part of defending, while maybe not giving you as many points, is to have people watching for people sneaking through or keeping an eye on mcoms. C4 forces the defending team to play tactically instead of just mowing down attackers on the front.



          Former TG-21st
          Swift Mobile On Target

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

            Hmmm, we could have a great discussion on the value of quoting Wikipedia : )

            But to roll with this, it could have said:

            Rush
            Players must defend or destroy pairs of M-COM stations for as long as the attacking team's respawn tickets hold out. Lost tickets can be regained by reviving fallen teammates. An M-COM station can be destroyed by planting a charge, using explosive weapons, when a building is collapsed down on it, or when an ATV loaded with C4 is detonated on it whether the driver survives or not.

            I went to an extreme here, I know, but just because the game allows it doesn't mean its fun, just as dying on spawn in your own UCB is not fun.

            Maybe there is some art in having one Recon run though or around enemy lines with motion balls out the whole way, get to the MCOM, have the remaining squad members spawn on him/her and blow the MCOM in short order, but repeating this over and over may not be fun for the other team.

            I'm not advocating any changes, I try and find good times in any game I play, and if I can't, I find a different game or a different environment to play it in (because, its a game). I just think I ended up here at TG because I'm looking for something more. Just the fact we can have this discussion is pretty cool by me.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

              I respectfully disagree with you that C4 is considered a "cheap tactic". Being able to effectively maneuver a squad of 4 to a target without 16 other players spotting you can be a challenge on any map. It requires patience, knowledge of the map, excellent situational awareness, timing, and luck if you believe in it.

              A good defense with a mix of kits, proper positioning and communication can counter a C4 squad. There are multiple sets of MComms that are vulnerable to building collapse via tank sniping, helicopter mini guns destroying the walls, and basic vulnerability to structural damage via engineers....in many instances, MComms will drop before a C4 squad can even get into position.

              C4 is not an exploitation....its an effective and legitimate weapon of destruction.

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              • #8
                Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                Originally posted by xBadger View Post
                Being able to effectively maneuver a squad of 4 to a target without 16 other players spotting you can be a challenge on any map. It requires patience, knowledge of the map, excellent situational awareness, timing, and luck if you believe in it.
                If this were true, then you would have argument. Mostly though, it is a SINGLE, member of the squad, not all 4, usually a recon with motion balls and shotgun of course C4, who does the sneaking. Once that guy reaches the MCOM, usually inside the building by now, a medic, to add some tactical flair, and two others spawn in with C4 and load up the MCOM and in short order both blow up the MCOM and then are quickly killed because they are surrounded.

                As I was once told, "when you see some BS gameplay, call it BS gameplay"

                On a personal note, I don't really care. I will say that it really isn't much fun though, but the attacker wins 9 out of 10 times anyway.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                  Originally posted by ProjectNA View Post
                  Hmmm, we could have a great discussion on the value of quoting Wikipedia : )

                  But to roll with this, it could have said:

                  Rush
                  Players must defend or destroy pairs of M-COM stations for as long as the attacking team's respawn tickets hold out. Lost tickets can be regained by reviving fallen teammates. An M-COM station can be destroyed by planting a charge, using explosive weapons, when a building is collapsed down on it, or when an ATV loaded with C4 is detonated on it whether the driver survives or not.

                  I went to an extreme here, I know, but just because the game allows it doesn't mean its fun, just as dying on spawn in your own UCB is not fun.

                  Maybe there is some art in having one Recon run though or around enemy lines with motion balls out the whole way, get to the MCOM, have the remaining squad members spawn on him/her and blow the MCOM in short order, but repeating this over and over may not be fun for the other team.

                  I'm not advocating any changes, I try and find good times in any game I play, and if I can't, I find a different game or a different environment to play it in (because, its a game). I just think I ended up here at TG because I'm looking for something more. Just the fact we can have this discussion is pretty cool by me.
                  This.

                  I deserve a ribbon for Mortar Specialist

                  Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
                  J.F.C. Fuller

                  Proud to have been a member of the 5th, 71st and my beloved 19th

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                  • #10
                    Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                    Even if you DO see the squad before they blow up the mcom its usually too late. You have to kill 4 people including revives before they can blow their load, and even if you stop them from blowing their c4, chances are one guy is gonna escape through a window, hide and have the rest of the squad spawn on him for anotehr C4 pass.

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                    • #11
                      Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                      I've played on the TG servers a LOT lately, and I mean a freaking LOT. I have been on both sides of the c4 situation and as far as I can see i think its very fair. the guys who are rushing it are usually pre-occupied with sprinting that if you have a good jump on them with the appropriate distance, you should have little to no problem.

                      I see this as a viable tactic in a real situation. You'll always have a recon/special ops team trying to infiltrate and destroy. Its not cheese, its not cheap and it's not easy. If you let ONE person pull this off, you kinda deserve to lose the M-COM. Its really not that hard to stop if you know its coming.

                      What is the difference between CGing an M-COM or Sticking a bradley on the M-COM? its not... They're just another tool that the devs put in the game to use. Clearly if they hadn't thought of this possibility, or they didn't want it to become a reality, c4 wouldn't do any damage to the M-COM at all.

                      "
                      Even if you DO see the squad before they blow up the mcom its usually too late. You have to kill 4 people including revives before they can blow their load, and even if you stop them from blowing their c4, chances are one guy is gonna escape through a window, hide and have the rest of the squad spawn on him for anotehr C4 pass.
                      "

                      Are you on TS? you can easily grab your own squad and make short work of the c4 squad. Grab a medic kit and lay into them with MG fire and they go down so fast. They should all be recons so revives shouldn't be a problem.

                      I really don't mean to be rude about all this but I firmly believe all is fair in war.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                        The issue from my perspective:

                        - It is DICE intended gameplay as DICE has commented on it during the beta, and afterward, and introduced fixes for it.

                        - It takes significant amount of teamwork to pull this tactic off. It's not a lone-man tactic: it requires a squad of 4 working together to pull off effectively. Medics, smoke, C4, and balls are necessary.

                        - In contrast, less teamwork is necessary to counter the tactic. A single recon ball can prevent and stop the push form ever happening.

                        At the same time, I can understand the issue from your perspective. "Oh, I was hoping for an epic fire-fight at a planted MCOM, a nail-biting 'don't let them defuse!' scene from an action movie and ... all I got was a MCOM suddenly disappearing for no good reason. That's not fun."

                        However, consider that it's possible to RPG a good chunk of objectives.
                        Consider that an enemy team can simply RPG the building to destroy it.
                        Consider that a team can snipe the MCOM or the building with tank from 400 meters away in complete safety.

                        The more I view the "risk and reward" of the action of destroying an MCOM, the more it seems that planting an MCOM is a last resort, and not a default action.

                        My point is -- you need to carefully examine the different ways in which an MCOM can be destroyed, and adjust your expectations accordingly. Planting an MCOM is simply the very worst way to assault on Rush. It shouldn't be what you expect to happen, it ought to be an exception.
                        C4, RPG, destroyed buildings, tank sniping ... fun or not, these should be expected. These give an advantage to the attackers. That's what ought to be your primary expectations, and that's what you ought to focus on expecting and countering.

                        Now, I'm not ignoring your points that countering RPG fire from 200M away or a sneaky squad with C4 is not fun -- however, that is what the game is.

                        TG can make the game something different, and if that's the direction this discussion needs to move forward, then let's take it. I think our end-state ought to be the primer: does whatever change we do simply get rid of something annoying, or does it incite more teamwork, and more tactics? Does it introduce more realistic gameplay, or does it incite "whatever it takes to win".

                        I'm all for making the TG server more TG, and more fun. Whatever this discussion is, let's make it constructive and get something from it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                          To be honest, I don't think the problem is C4'ing the MCOM. I think the whole Rush mode is completely unbalanced.

                          There has to be a problem with a game mode when most everyone is both almost always winning while attacking and almost always losing while defending. You would think that some players would be good at defending, but the highest W/L I've seen for defending is 1.00



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                            I am no expert at this game but unless I am missing something don't people just hold spawn till the lone recon gets there and then spawn in and wall paper the place in C4, doesn't require much teamwork in my opinion other than not pressing 'spawn in'. Hardly the cutting edge of realistic tactics though I appreciate that is not the issue at hand nor the point for many people. In fact I know it is possible as I just witnessed a team try it on the TG server on what seemed like every MCOM on Arica harbour. They lost by the way, which was nice.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: On C4 in Rush gamemode

                              Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                              The issue from my perspective:

                              - It is DICE intended gameplay as DICE has commented on it during the beta, and afterward, and introduced fixes for it.

                              - It takes significant amount of teamwork to pull this tactic off. It's not a lone-man tactic: it requires a squad of 4 working together to pull off effectively. Medics, smoke, C4, and balls are necessary.

                              - In contrast, less teamwork is necessary to counter the tactic. A single recon ball can prevent and stop the push form ever happening.

                              At the same time, I can understand the issue from your perspective. "Oh, I was hoping for an epic fire-fight at a planted MCOM, a nail-biting 'don't let them defuse!' scene from an action movie and ... all I got was a MCOM suddenly disappearing for no good reason. That's not fun."

                              However, consider that it's possible to RPG a good chunk of objectives.
                              Consider that an enemy team can simply RPG the building to destroy it.
                              Consider that a team can snipe the MCOM or the building with tank from 400 meters away in complete safety.

                              The more I view the "risk and reward" of the action of destroying an MCOM, the more it seems that planting an MCOM is a last resort, and not a default action.

                              My point is -- you need to carefully examine the different ways in which an MCOM can be destroyed, and adjust your expectations accordingly. Planting an MCOM is simply the very worst way to assault on Rush. It shouldn't be what you expect to happen, it ought to be an exception.
                              C4, RPG, destroyed buildings, tank sniping ... fun or not, these should be expected. These give an advantage to the attackers. That's what ought to be your primary expectations, and that's what you ought to focus on expecting and countering.

                              Now, I'm not ignoring your points that countering RPG fire from 200M away or a sneaky squad with C4 is not fun -- however, that is what the game is.

                              TG can make the game something different, and if that's the direction this discussion needs to move forward, then let's take it. I think our end-state ought to be the primer: does whatever change we do simply get rid of something annoying, or does it incite more teamwork, and more tactics? Does it introduce more realistic gameplay, or does it incite "whatever it takes to win".

                              I'm all for making the TG server more TG, and more fun. Whatever this discussion is, let's make it constructive and get something from it.
                              I do actually think m-coms placed in destructible buildings is kinda fail as there is pretty much no way to defend it from getting slowly rocketed to death, but there is nothing you can do about that. You cant go tell people to not blow buildings up, and its balanced in the way that not all mcoms are in destructible buildings.

                              On the topic of destroying it from afar.
                              It takes quite a while to destroy an mcom with rockets or tank shells. Long enough for the defenders to do something to counter it. If there is a team of engineers sitting somewhere shooting rockets you can kill them before they kill the mcom. Same with a tank.
                              I actually think thats my main beef with C4. You cannot counter it, but only take preemptive actions to prevent it from happening in the first place. As far as I know its the only tactic in the game that you cannot counter before its too late.
                              A charge you can counter by defusing it before it blows up. A flag push you can counter by pushing back and retaking the flag before the enemy caps it fully. C4 you can...well you can either predict it happening or watch your mcom blow up without warning.

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