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Take two: without being abrasive

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  • Take two: without being abrasive

    In my experience defending on Rush, I've found recon balls invaluable. I often feel they are the difference between winning and losing on Rush defense. This is especially true when working against fast and smart TG squads who often break through the front lines of fighting. I feel that intel is key in Rush defense, and that a proper team should have at least two recons to defend.

    However, after keeping careful tabs on this for the last two weeks (notice a post I made two weeks ago, advocating more recon balls) I've noticed on our servers that very few TG members carry recon balls. There's long stretches of time when no recon balls are up, and it's often a non-TGer (a sniper usually) who throws an occasional recon ball.
    I find this frustrating. Defending on Rush (especially on MCOMs where the fight is stacked in the defenders' favour) is extremely frustrating when working with a team that does not use recon balls.

    I realize that other people may play at other times and have significantly different experiences: I can understand and respect that, however, my experiences, even with an almost TG-full team have been lackluster. The vast majority of “sneaky” pushes made by attackers can be killed before they become chaotic with a single recon ball. Further, even non-TGers see recon ball info, and they can help control breakthrough.

    If choosing to run around and throw recon balls, you're faced with either the default weapons or the VSS. Those aren't very pretty choices (as most of the default weapons are pretty awful) and I think that deters a lot of people from running around and throwing recon balls. I think that on a teamwork-focused team, we should nonetheless have at least two people willing to run around and help the team.

    I don't mean to say that people should drop useful kits they're carrying, but if you notice zero recon balls up, and it might make your life easier if your team had recon balls, you ought to consider switching kits on next spawn and asking for ammo. I think that would benefit the team a lot more than another medic or assault – as useful as those kits are.

    This recommendation is based in experience, and a lot of it:
    - The #1 way I've been foiled in trying to C4 MCOMs has invariably been through recon balls. It's often difficult to spot players trying to sneak through undetected into the back, but I've always been swarmed by TG players after having a recon ball thrown against my squad.
    - The most effective combination I've found defending on Rush has been to wait for a TGer calling out intel (such as “in front of Bravo”) and then throwing recon balls there. I feel that the recon ball makes our team's job a lot easier in getting rid of the attackers.

    Having successfully offended and defended many times on Rush, I feel I can recommend to TG that recon balls are a very useful and effective tool to use.

    I feel extremely frustrated when I'm surrounded by many TGers who don't see how much easier it would be defend with recon balls. If you disagree, I'd be happy to hear it. I sincerely don't think that a defense can be any more effective on a team that doesn't use recon balls.

    I feel that there is a growing subculture that doesn't place the team first. I may be -- and I hope I am -- mistaken in saying this, but I feel there is a growing torrent of people who don't particularly place the team first. This is where this post stems from, originally, and it's what has me frustrated and what fuels this post.
    Doing boring or unfun or low-scoring jobs is ... well, not fun. However, it's a part of working for a team: you can't simply have the benefits of teamwork.

    This is where I stand. I really want to emphasize that I've found that a defense that relies heavily on recon balls is a lot, lot easier, and oftentimes means shutting down a very smart attacking TG team on the first stage of the map. I really want to emphasize that this has worked for me -- if you think it might work for you, please try it.

    The things I want more of: more recon balls, more "dedicated" medics, more assaults dropping ammo. More teamwork.

  • #2
    Re: Take two: without being abrasive

    For those of you who really don't want to run recon, I have found that you can keep up a somewhat steady supply of balls if you pick up any recon kit lying on the ground and throw a ball as you run past as surprisingly enough, I find quite a few recon kits lying around. The same can also go for medic/ammo hubs but that's a different story. This is by no means a replacement for recons, but if you find a kit lying around it makes a world of difference to take the extra couple of second to use a ball from it.



    Former TG-21st
    Swift Mobile On Target

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    • #3
      Re: Take two: without being abrasive

      Nice post Zohar and anyone who disagrees on the importance of recon balls on rush maps should immediately sign up for TGU class called Recon Noob 101 or try reading "Recon for dummies".

      I think that each squad should have one of each classes this way we keep a balance of each kit on the team and avoid comms like " need more medics or more balls"
      The way we can implement that is to assign kits between maps or if you join a squad ask what kit is available. Just my two cents.
      sigpic


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      • #4
        Re: Take two: without being abrasive

        So, if people don't do the one tactic/item that you prefer they aren't team workers?
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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        • #5
          Re: Take two: without being abrasive

          Originally posted by snooggums View Post
          So, if people don't do the one tactic/item that you prefer they aren't team workers?
          When people prefer to fight in the blind without any intel are they stupid?
          Nubhar

          - In the process, I have discovered that I can make iron bolts with my butt****.

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          • #6
            Re: Take two: without being abrasive

            Originally posted by snooggums View Post
            So, if people don't do the one tactic/item that you prefer they aren't team workers?
            Well, look at it from my shoes: if there's an action that really benefits the team, that doesn't take a lot of effort, but isn't particularly fun and doesn't grant a large score -- and that action isn't done, you've got to ask why. First thing I'd assume is that the player is placing their own score and fun ahead of the team.

            That's where I'm coming from. I think recon balls are very beneficial and I hope more people use them.

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            • #7
              Re: Take two: without being abrasive

              I'll bite, Snooggums. What alternative tactic that provides comparable situational awareness advantage do you advocate?




              Who needs a life when you can have a heavy bolter?
              --BlackMirror
              <23:03:38> "|TG|Smachin<BF Admin>" was kicked from the server by "|TG-70th| Zhohar" (UNDERAGE ban.)
              Anything over $600, and it would be pointless to try and reason with Grandma
              --Blackraven93

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              • #8
                Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                So, if people don't do the one tactic/item that you prefer they aren't team workers?
                I don't understand why it is necessary for people who I rarely see on the server make statements like this when in fact, that is not what Zhohar is saying.

                It is very simple: Recons deploy motion sensors, Medics drop medic hubs, Assault drop ammo hubs. These should be automatic.

                I'm going to add another one from the point of view of an engineer. You see an enemy engie laying mines. Kill him and destroy the mines.
                "Press the red shiny button"~Vortex
                "I may give out, but I'll never give in." ~ Lou Bond "To the Establishment"

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                • #9
                  Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                  Originally posted by PL_OSTRY View Post
                  Nice post Zohar and anyone who disagrees on the importance of recon balls on rush maps should immediately sign up for TGU class called Recon Noob 101 or try reading "Recon for dummies".
                  My response below was to the post right above it made by PL_OSTRY. He didn't mention teamwork, but it was on the topic of the post etc, etc.

                  Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                  So, if people don't do the one tactic/item that you prefer they aren't team workers?
                  Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                  Defending on Rush (especially on MCOMs where the fight is stacked in the defenders' favour) is extremely frustrating when working with a team that does not use recon balls.

                  If choosing to run around and throw recon balls, you're faced with either the default weapons or the VSS. Those aren't very pretty choices (as most of the default weapons are pretty awful) and I think that deters a lot of people from running around and throwing recon balls. I think that on a teamwork-focused team, we should nonetheless have at least two people willing to run around and help the team.
                  So, since it is all teamwork to use the recon balls on defense I should assume you always go recon to throw balls as a team player since you later say:

                  Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                  Well, look at it from my shoes: if there's an action that really benefits the team, that doesn't take a lot of effort, but isn't particularly fun and doesn't grant a large score -- and that action isn't done, you've got to ask why. First thing I'd assume is that the player is placing their own score and fun ahead of the team.
                  Originally posted by ArmoredBear View Post
                  I don't understand why it is necessary for people who I rarely see on the server make statements like this when in fact, that is not what Zhohar is saying.

                  It is very simple: Recons deploy motion sensors, Medics drop medic hubs, Assault drop ammo hubs. These should be automatic.

                  I'm going to add another one from the point of view of an engineer. You see an enemy engie laying mines. Kill him and destroy the mines.
                  What is being said comes across as "Other people need to throw recon balls so I have situational awareness because it is teamwork and I question anyone who doesn't go recon in this situation when no one on the team is doing it, then a long explanation about how the matching weapons aren't that great but you can still have fun doing X. Well, if a player noting that nobody is using recon balls then that person isn't using recon balls themselves, right?
                  |TG-6th|Snooggums

                  Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    Well, if a player noting that nobody is using recon balls then that person isn't using recon balls themselves, right?
                    Whether or not Zhohar throws recon balls has no bearing on the fact that throwing recon balls is a pretty smart thing to do and helps the team immensely. I don't see what you're trying to argue here.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                      Originally posted by Cheburash View Post
                      I'll bite, Snooggums. What alternative tactic that provides comparable situational awareness advantage do you advocate?
                      Actual freakin' situational awareness, for one. Even in "non-tactical" games that I play, basic communication and discipline can fulfill ANY defensive role. All I read on here is the importance of recon balls in a defense! What ever happened to "Player X, cover our 12 o'clock. Player Y, cover the approach to our 9."

                      Or can you not do this, TG?

                      A great TG'er once said something along the lines of "You could give a TG member a kitchen sink and he'd find a way to help his team with it."

                      For the love of god, keep the basics of playing a shooter in mind, people! A good defense should never rely on certain weapons/equipment/players. A good defense only needs communication and discipline!

                      Originally posted by ArmoredBear View Post
                      I don't understand why it is necessary for people who I rarely see on the server make statements like this when in fact, that is not what Zhohar is saying.
                      You assume two things:

                      1. All TG members play under their forum names/wear tags.
                      2. All TG members prefer to play on the TG server.
                      Skud


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                      • #12
                        Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                        Originally posted by TheSkudDestroyer View Post
                        Originally posted by Cheburash View Post
                        I'll bite, Snooggums. What alternative tactic that provides comparable situational awareness advantage do you advocate?
                        Actual freakin' situational awareness, for one.
                        Players can not look through walls in BC2. Recon balls can.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                          Originally posted by Zhohar View Post
                          Whether or not Zhohar throws recon balls has no bearing on the fact that throwing recon balls is a pretty smart thing to do and helps the team immensely. I don't see what you're trying to argue here.
                          It does when Zhohar is telling other players he questions their motives, then it comes across as I stated above: "Hey player, check out this thing that is kind of boring to do but necessary and I'll give you tips on how to do it so I can benefit from it without doing it myself". I don't know if you normally throw recon balls in these situations but saying that you notice nobody is doing it, instead of that you are the only one doing it, sounds like you aren't doing it either.

                          Maybe I'm giving your word choice too much credit?
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                            The simple fact of the matter is Zhohar has actually thrown 11007 recon balls and had 3381 spot assists according to a quick check of the stats. It seems to me that he is walking the walk and trying to share experience on effective measures as he has done in the past. I will be surprised if we have many more players around here who have used more.
                            Last edited by jb4; 06-22-2010, 09:49 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Take two: without being abrasive

                              Want to get a sense of how you're doing as a recon? Figure out the rate at which you're throwing out scanners per minute with the recon kit. To use myself as an example, I've played 5h6min with the recon kit and thrown out 1,277 sensors, which means I'm chucking 4.17 per minute. Sounds impressive, until you notice that Zho's played 44 hours with the kit, flung 14,440 scanners, and averaged 5.47 chucks per minute. He's also spent 26.9% of his time with the recon kit with the balls selected, as compared to my 15.4%.

                              Clearly, I have some catching up to do.




                              Who needs a life when you can have a heavy bolter?
                              --BlackMirror
                              <23:03:38> "|TG|Smachin<BF Admin>" was kicked from the server by "|TG-70th| Zhohar" (UNDERAGE ban.)
                              Anything over $600, and it would be pointless to try and reason with Grandma
                              --Blackraven93

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